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Broken Alternator Studs... :-( direct me to info
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Pascal
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vanagonjr wrote:
insyncro wrote:
Left handed drill bits are the key Exclamation


Great info Dylan!! Can you receommend a set and source?


I bought my left handed cobalt drill bits from McMaster Carr. I could not find any locally.
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vanagonjr wrote:
insyncro wrote:
Left handed drill bits are the key Exclamation


Great info Dylan!! Can you receommend a set and source?
I bought the screw extractor kit referenced above for future use, might as well get the left handed bits in advance of my exhaust work!


The complete Snap On kits come with the bits and extractors.

I have different sets of of drill bits for many different purposes.
All Snappy.
They are replaced regularly by my Rep without question Exclamation
Tough little buggers, but they have a tough job and limited life.
The fresher the better in my experiences.
That goes for the bit and extractor.
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wyomingresident
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

insyncro wrote:
I have a Snap On extractor set.
It has removed 100% of all broken bolts I have had to extract.

Left handed drill bits are the key Exclamation

Use a center punch to make sure you start in the center of the stud and not get off track.
Use cutting oil and keep cleaning the hole to remove all fragments.

Good luck


I borrowed a nice right angle drill from a friend. I had a small cobalt bit and despite the center punch, couldn't keep the drill on track. I was afraid I was catching the block and stopped.

I replaced one of the studs and put it all together again.

How long will it last? I'd like to add the GoWesty Alternator bracket to help solid things up, but there are no holes where it should go.

I guess I'd have to bring it to a shop to get the spots drilled out.

Thoughts?
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vanagonjr
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

insyncro wrote:
Left handed drill bits are the key Exclamation


Great info Dylan!! Can you receommend a set and source?
I bought the screw extractor kit referenced above for future use, might as well get the left handed bits in advance of my exhaust work!
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a Snap On extractor set.
It has removed 100% of all broken bolts I have had to extract.

Left handed drill bits are the key Exclamation

Use a center punch to make sure you start in the center of the stud and not get off track.
Use cutting oil and keep cleaning the hole to remove all fragments.

Good luck
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wyomingresident
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wyomingresident wrote:
Pascal wrote:
Can you get some vice grips on that stud? If so heat around the stud with a propane torch then grab the stud with the vice grips and try to remove it. Are the any threads left in the other stud hole? it does not look like it from the picture.


I'm hoping to leave the right stud there and only work on the left one.

I'm still bummed, just less bummed. I need to find a battery operated 90 degree drill, a decent bit and the correct easy out.


Correction: I'm hoping to leave the intact- left one there and only work on the broken right one. Yes the stud is broken off 3 or so mms down in there.

Aaarrrggghhh!
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dobryan
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhaavers wrote:

Link

Picked up couple sets of these after my injector bracket stud went south.
Alaric likes 'em.


I borrowed Alaric's set to do some exhaust studs and they were the bomb! Highly recommended to center that crucial first drill pass.
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dhaavers
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


Link

Picked up couple sets of these after my injector bracket stud went south.
Alaric likes 'em.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once you use heat on the stud it will harden it and it is a PITA to drill (if you even can). I learned this the hard way on exhaust studs. I'd try drilling out the flush one with progressively larger drill bits until you can chase the threads and put in a new stud. I bought a right angle drill at Harbor Freight for this purpose. Try twisting out the proud stud with a vice grips or other method and if it beaks off then drill it out. Others swear by (at) welding a nut on the stud but the problem is that if it does not work the stud is hardened and it is much worse from there on. YMMV greatly.
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Pascal
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="wyomingresident"I'm hoping to leave the right stud there and only work on the left one.[/quote]

So the left stud is broken inside the hole? I've never seen that before. Can you clearly see it in there?
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Ahwahnee
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I once called a shop when I had a broken (non-VW) stud. They quoted me 2 prices to get it out:

If I brought it in now: 20 bucks

If I broke an EZ-Out in it: it will cost whatever it costs (i.e. can't say and it won't be cheap).
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wyomingresident
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pascal wrote:
Can you get some vice grips on that stud? If so heat around the stud with a propane torch then grab the stud with the vice grips and try to remove it. Are the any threads left in the other stud hole? it does not look like it from the picture.


I'm hoping to leave the right stud there and only work on the left one.

I'm still bummed, just less bummed. I need to find a battery operated 90 degree drill, a decent bit and the correct easy out.
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campism
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahwahnee wrote:
It looks like the stud that is broken sits flush with the bracket -- which means that once the bracket is off you will have a bit of the stud standing proud -- hopefully enough to get a stud puller/extractor to bite on it. If not, lots of other tricky ways have been described here, in particular welding a nut on it.


Good luck with this. I have been dealing with a broken exhaust bolt (just like a stud once it's broken, y'know). There are twisted spline extractors that you tighten onto the remaining stud in a left-turning direction and as you tighten it (theoretically) loosens the stud and backs it out. I learned you need enough stud exposed ("standing proud") for it to bite into or it bottoms out.

Then there is the cam-type extractor which has a knurled rotating part that forces the stud against the other part of the tool and as you tighten the tool against the stud it (theoretically) forces the stud to unscrew. I was working with about 3/8" of exposed stud and the tool walked off the end of it, not being able to get sufficient bite. Heat was applied before during and after (what the hell) several attempts with each of those tools.

On to the welding trick per this link:
http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/studremoval.htm

The welding trick sounded great and yesterday I watched a pro try thrice to unscrew a nut he'd welded to the remaining stud. First attempt broke off a little of the stud. Second attempt broke off a little more of the remaining stud. On the third attempt we tried his heat. I'd been using a propane torch and figured it just was not hot enough so after welding the third nut he tried acetylene to heat up the head. Broke off the rest of the remaining stud, leaving a flush break. Did not go further with the washer/nut trick.

Drilling in place attempts required removing as much of everything between the stud and the back of the van as necessary for clearance and all I learned about this was how hard that damn steel is in the stud. Barely registers the drilling attack. I'm now deeper into a WBX than I ever hoped I'd be.

I sincerely wish you good luck with this venture and hope the alternator studs are immune to the evident corrosion endemic to the exhaust studs/bolts.
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Pascal
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahwahnee wrote:
wyomingresident wrote:
I see where it looks like it may bolt on, but no holes.


Shouldn't there be a pair of threaded holes where the magenta dots are?

[Perhaps some 84s didn't get them?


My '84 is the same as this one. No hole in the head to be able to put on the Go Westy extra support bracket. I found that out after buying the bracket. Sad
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Pascal
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you get some vice grips on that stud? If so heat around the stud with a propane torch then grab the stud with the vice grips and try to remove it. Are the any threads left in the other stud hole? it does not look like it from the picture.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, one broken stud is not enough. I had one in the shop that was driven with broken or bad stud too long and a chunk of the engine case broke off taking the top half of both the threaded hole with it.
Luckly his van did not have AC, I bolted on an AC compressor bracket and used an alternator from a 16v early Passat, and mounted the alternator on the left side of the engine. It took a bit of custom work but I had it back on the road in a few hours with a higher amp alt to boot. Other shops might have sold him an engine. This van is still on the road today.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At this point, I think I'm going to put it back together and drive to a friend's house.

I'll drain the cooling system and look to get the coolant crossover pipe off, then see what an easy out does.

Off hand? What size easy out should I buy- I've never used one before?

Just asking: Is the one stud strong enough to do the job???
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is a 1.9 wbx cooling layout
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the early WBX engines came with one head tapped and one head not tapped for the PS pump bracket (the purple dots on that picture). Look at the left head and see if the holes are there. They may have gotten swapped around during a head gasket job.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^They are solid. No holes...
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