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SL12572 Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2011 Posts: 270 Location: Washington
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:59 am Post subject: Project Supercharged WBX |
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I'm sure some will appreciate this project and others will roll their eyes. Well...that's what makes it fun
After countless hours of researching engine conversions, I decided to stick with the WBX. Here's a basic rundown of what I will be doing:
1. WBX 2.1 with upgraded connecting rods and bolts from Rocky Jennings. Other improvements will be made as I go along. Possibly larger pistons. I will be consulting with Rocky and Chris (tencent) on their thoughts as I work through it.
2. Digifant is going away and will be replaced with a Megasquirt EMS to control both spark and fuel.
3. Turbocharger running mild boost settings with intercooler and water injection.
This is just the beginning. I'm open to ideas, thoughts, and suggestions. I'm not open to the idea of scrapping the project for a 1.8, Subaru, or Zetec
Here's a picture of the engine I picked up for the project. Removed from a 1990 VW Carat that was very well maintained:
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Spinal Tap Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2008 Posts: 413 Location: Chicago IL
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:01 am Post subject: |
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Yes! Turbo it! _________________ '85 Westy
'74 MG-B
RCB wrote: |
Its called tact...and tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a manner that they anticipate the trip. |
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SteveVanB Samba Member
Joined: June 01, 2008 Posts: 1645 Location: This side of Daytona
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:09 am Post subject: |
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Hell yes! I'll be watching _________________ 91 CARAT |
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Vango Conversions Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2010 Posts: 1054 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:12 am Post subject: |
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A few people on here have put a turbo on their WBXers, hopefully they'll chime in. If I remember correctly it seems like most of them had tuning issues, but hopefully the megasquirt will be able to handle it if you get it dialed in correctly.
Good luck! |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12115 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:15 am Post subject: |
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I've been seriously contemplating this exact approach, myself. What's your proposed strategy for intercooling?
I assume you've seen the thread about the guy who swapped over the turbo and engine management from a 740 Volvo, right? _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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itsasyncro Samba Member
Joined: September 22, 2010 Posts: 92
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:17 am Post subject: |
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I knew it went to a good home.
Jeff |
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toomanyveedubs Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2007 Posts: 596 Location: Great White North
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:32 am Post subject: |
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Subscribed .
I think stand alone fuel/spark would be a +/- 10 hp boost for any wbx.
Does the megasquirt use crank fired ignition?
Last edited by toomanyveedubs on Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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buildyourown Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2009 Posts: 1668 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:38 am Post subject: |
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Anyway to add piston oil squirters? Looking at pics of them in other engines they aren't compicated. |
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bluefirefly Samba Member
Joined: March 16, 2011 Posts: 438 Location: Calgary, Ab
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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I'll be watching too, sounds good and good luck to you. _________________ 86 Syncro Tintop G60
work in progress ...as always! |
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GrindGarage Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2008 Posts: 710 Location: Ocean City, NJ
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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You can use stock dizzy pickup for crank triggering.
Would be nice to use a coil pack setup like suby too.
I would put a front mount intercooler on it and run the tubes front to rear.
There is Corvette turbo setup with long intercooler pipes and it improves the cooling.
Megasquirt is fun and baseline maps are easy to setup with innovative wideband O2. _________________ -cliff
91 Vanagon AUTO
97 Single Port EJ22 all smallcar.com |
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fredn Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2010 Posts: 332 Location: Vancouver
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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The megasquirt can use a trigger wheel on a pulley or they now have what is a trigger wheel inside the distro housing. You can use coil on plug or edis, or two coil packs with wasted spark. You can do what you want.
It will read both tps and manifold pressure which will be usefull when you turbo.
Good luck this sounds awesome. _________________ 1982 Air Cooled Vanagon Carat Weekender Interior
tencentlife wrote: |
...most are doing what most auto forum participants do, parroting things they've heard |
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fredn Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2010 Posts: 332 Location: Vancouver
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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_________________ 1982 Air Cooled Vanagon Carat Weekender Interior
tencentlife wrote: |
...most are doing what most auto forum participants do, parroting things they've heard |
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presslab Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008 Posts: 1730 Location: Sonoma County
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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You might not need the Megasquirt, although it'd be cool. Higher fuel pressure(and/or injectors), adjusted MAF, and a spark retard box might be all you need.
What compression ratio are you aiming for? _________________ 1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti |
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SL12572 Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2011 Posts: 270 Location: Washington
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the encouragement!
The first step is building up the engine slowly, retaining the stock compression ratio, which will work well for my mildly boosted engine. I want to gather as much information possible to start off with a strong/reliable base. As far as the baseline goes, here's some items needed to be addressed:
1. Besides getting rid of the stock stretch bolts, what are the other weak areas to improve on while I've got it torn apart.
2. Camshaft. Will I benefit much from a modified cam in a boosted engine? I do want to retain hydraulic lifters.
3. Ceramic coated heads/pistons. Factoring in that I will have water injection, which will reduce cylinder temperatures and carbon buildup, will there be a reason to ceramic coat any of the internals? I'm not sure if I need to be concerned with corrosion issues with AMC heads and regular maintenance of the cooling system.
4. Valves. Will I benefit much from valve modifcations with a boosted engine?
This project has a long ways to go, so please be patient! I will document the process as I go along.
Again, all questions, suggestions, comments are encouraged.
Scott |
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SL12572 Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2011 Posts: 270 Location: Washington
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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presslab wrote: |
You might not need the Megasquirt, although it'd be cool. Higher fuel pressure(and/or injectors), adjusted MAF, and a spark retard box might be all you need.
What compression ratio are you aiming for? |
Presslab, I do agree that it may not be necessary, but I like the fact that I will have complete control of the engine managment system to match my application, versus trying to take the stock system and make it work with my application.
I believe there will be a large difference in tunability and efficiency using the Megasquirt system, intead of stock.
I plan on retaining the stock compression ratio of the MV 2.1 |
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purplepeopleeater Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2005 Posts: 3117 Location: E. Washington
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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Cool, megasquirt would be awesome....nice and clean.
where in washington are ya?
Ole rocky is in my backyard, close anyways. |
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SL12572 Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2011 Posts: 270 Location: Washington
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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purplepeopleeater wrote: |
Cool, megasquirt would be awesome....nice and clean.
where in washington are ya?
Ole rocky is in my backyard, close anyways. |
Let's see...I'm all over Western WA In West Seattle (my actual home) and Bellingham (my hangar hotel).
I plan in the near future setting up a meet and greet at Rocky's to get some of my questions answered. |
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D Clymer Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005 Posts: 2978 Location: Issaquah, WA
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Scott,
I think its great that you are going to tackle this one. A turbo WBX is something many have contemplated over the years, but so far very few have put the time into actually doing it.
I would look closely at the setup that JoeVW has shown on here. He used the components from a Volvo 740/760 turbo and came up with impressive results. His build will give you the best answers as to whether a stock cam, and stock heads, pistons are suitable. (In my opinion all three are fine.) He used the stock Volvo Bosch L Jetronic system and apparently it worked very well. I understand your desire for laptop tuneability so Megasquirt would certainly be an affordable way to attain this. A couple thoughts I have:
1. The 2.1 pistons have an 8.8:1 CR. These will be fine for a mild turbo. There are a couple of affordable choices for larger pistons that would give you a full 2200cc. AA Piston 95.5mm and QSC 96mm. The QSCs if used with stock rods will lower the CR a bit and would allow higher boost. However, I think it makes a lot of sense to stay with a stock bore so that the sealing rings at the tops of the cylinders will be as wide as possible.
2. Unless you are going with really low boost, it would be a good idea to fit the engine with a knock sensor so that the optimal timing vs detonation calibrations are achieved. Placement of a ks on a wet sleeve engine is problematic and there are very few OEM precedents set down. Alfa Romeo V6s are wet sleeve engines. It would be interesting to see where they placed their knock sensor.
3. I don't think there is any way to use piston spray oilers with a wbx since the oil pressure characteristics of these engines are less than ideal. I don't have any proof of this or anecdotal evidence, but the idle oil pressure of these engines is very marginal even without having to supply additonal oil volume to four oil squirters.
4. The stock valve sizes are very decent for an engine of this displacement. With some port work from Rocky the flow should be excellent with a turbo.
Anyway, just some thoughts I thought I'd bring up. I am very much in support of this idea. It's true that there are many conversion choices that would produce a similar result, but there is something I really like about the good old WBX. It would be cool to have one with some real power and torque.
David |
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Howesight Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2008 Posts: 3274 Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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Cheers to SL12572:
I have my SVX engine still sitting on my engine stand at home and so my interest in the turbo WBX engine is semi-academic. I do have a couple spare westies besides my syncro westy that I like to play with.
I have often thought how good it would be to turbocharge the WBX given that no other fitment issues would arise, and that there is a wealth of existing knowledge about the peculiarities of the WBX.
I turbocharged a Toyota 22RE engine years ago using Megasquirt. It was a very fun and rewarding project. For the WBX, it is actually a very practical solution to the underpowered nature of the WBX.
So here are my observations and hints:
1. For choice of turbocharger: I have an Audi URS4 with the 2.2 litre 5-cylinder turbo engine which, with upgraded turbo, injectors, chip, exhaust, etc., is a very fun drive. Many owners have upgraded these cars with the Audi RS2 turbo, meaning there are LOTS of the orignal stock S4 spec K24 turbos available used. That turbo on the stock S4 engine (230 HP stock) made boost from 1,800 RPM. It started to run out of breath at 6,000 RPM (but still rev and make power to the 7,000 rpm redline.) It would be an ideal turbo for the WBX since it is 2.1 litres and boost be available from 1,800. It is also a very robust design with a separate waste gate. Check out Audifans Marketplace for used turbos:
http://www.audifans.com/marketplace/browse.php
2. Don't confuse the S4 K24 design with the different A/R K24 turbos Audi installed on some other Audi models. Also note the the K26 turbo used on the old Audi 5000 turbo engine is laggy and really only makes boost from around 2,500 rpm - - not good for the WBX.
3. Don't worry about lowering compression. Worry instead about getting the best squish/quench characteristics you can. Run the tightest deck height you feel comfortable with. If you consistently (but not always) use water injection, then you will never get significant carbon buildup in the combustion chamber nor on the pistons and you can even go as tight as a 0.030" deck height.
4. J&S Safeguard is an excellent stand-alone knock control system that can be used on any engine running any engine management system except wasted spark. It is cylinder-selective, which is why wasted spark won't allow it to be effective. Here's a link to their website:
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/
5. The beauty of the J&S is that the sensitivity can be adjusted easily. It will not require an engineering degree to place the knock sensor correctly, although you will be the guinea pig if you take up the challenge. Many OEMs place the sensors closer to the crank end of the cylinder, presumably to avoid false readings from valve-train noise. In the WBX, you might have to run two knock sensors.
6. Ceramic coatings are great, but I don't think they assist in a turbo engine. Remember that they can impair piston cooling. No OEMs I know of (although I am ready to hear about those that do) use ceramics in their turbo engines. Maybe more importantly, I would be concerned about chips of ceramic material destoying the turbine section.
7. There are quite a few people who have done high performance WBX turbo setups running MegaSquirt and who have shared their experience and setups on Megasquirt's "It Runs" forum. Base maps are available.
8. A mild performance cam would be good, but nothing with long duration or much overlap. Basically, I have thought, the WBX just needs a little cam help in revving comfortably past 4,000 rpm. Ratio rockers and a bit more lift than stock with slightly more duration but minimal overlap would be my goals.
9. Since it's boosted, and the air density is far greater, flow concerns are not as critical as in a NA engine. No porting except to clean up the bowls at the bottom of the valve seat would be needed. You would likely want a slightly wider valve seat and a healthy margin on the valves. Inconel or Manley or TRW stainless exhaust valves would probably help longevity.
10. The achilles heel of so many DIY turbo set ups for long-term reliability, I think, is a crappy exhaust system (between the engine and the turbo) that simply cannot withstand the heat and cracks or breaks. Givne the tubing length that the flat WBX mandates, this will be a challenge.
11. An Air-to-water intercooler setup would be ideal given the lack of airflow in the Vanagon engine compartment, but if you don't mind the roar of a fan, an electric fan-cooled intercooler could be a close second.
12. Going to an aftermarket engine management system has one great benefit - - you can get rid of the Air Flow Meter altogether and just use a MAP-based speed/density system, although you would still need an air temp sensor.
13. The turbo set-up would definitely require a more robust oil cooler setup. An air-to-oil system would be best. Those same old Audi turbo cars (including the old 5000 turbos) have a good system that could be grafted onto the WBX fairly easily with the "sandwich" adaptor from the Audi installed in place of the WBX oil cooler. _________________ '86 Syncro Westy SVX |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12115 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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The Volvo turbos can also be a nifty source for the aforementioned oil cooler bits ^
I'm planning to adapt these pieces to my mTDI swap _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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