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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17123
Location: Retired South Florida
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 Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:28 am Post subject: Brake Upgrade for Early Vanagon |
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I usually don't attempt to document any of my vanagon projects, but this one will take some time and I will try to update my progress. I have the original discs that I will be using for mock up. I resurfaced both sides of one disc and cut the diameter down. I used a conventional brake lathe for this part.
I intend to use racing discs from Coleman Machine like I use on the race car. Here is a picture of a used racing disc set in place on the modified hub.
The used rotor has a diameter only slightly larger than stock 11 7/8 ths. I can order up to 13 inch discs and have the room to fit them under my 16's. The disc mounting holes are 8 on 7" centers. This is a common size.
I have the option to bolt the disc to either side of the original hub to tune the offset to the caliper mounting.
The next step will be to have our local machine shop drill the mounting holes in my hub. The disc bolts up using 5/16th AN bolts. Once I have the disc drilled and the disc mounted, I can start to look at caliper mounting. At this point, I intend to use a 4 piston Outlaw caliper similar to the ones I use on the race car, hopefully using a flat 3/8ths plate to adapt to the stock spindle. Currently the vanagon has stock 2 piston ATE calipers that were also used on early 911 Porsches. At one time there were kits to expand the stock caliper to fit vented rotors, but I imagine those parts are rare. That is all for now. mark
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1fin
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:10 am Post subject: |
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| Thank you for posting your upgrade writeup, this has given me good ideas about how to retain my Audi big brake/stock hub setup while mounting wheels with a low offset. |
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Team WorldTour
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 2426
Location: Der Vaterland
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:49 am Post subject: |
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Save yourself the time, headache, and possible failure. Get the big brake kit from VC. I have it on my '85 (old-style hubs like yours), and it is a very simple and effective upgrade.
I had the whole conversion done in two hours.
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1990 Feldjäger Syncro AAZ
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H6 Subaru Engine Swap Thread
WV2ZZZ25ZFH094138(x)/ WV2YB0257LH057308(x)/ WV2ZZZ25ZLG113270/
"Where am I going? And what am I doing in this handbasket?" -Nicodemus Jordan
When All Else Fails: Lather, Rinse, Repeat! |
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17123
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| Domo wrote: |
Save yourself the time, headache, and possible failure. Get the big brake kit from VC. I have it on my '85 (old-style hubs like yours), and it is a very simple and effective upgrade.
I had the whole conversion done in two hours. |
Now where is the "fun" in that? Anybody can buy something and bolt it on. I can lay awake in bed pondering a scheduled meeting for the next morning at work or I can lay there pondering how I will determine the offset for mounting the calipers. I find pondering the vanagon upgrades is almost as enjoyable as implementing the upgrade. Cheers.
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Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12115
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:52 am Post subject: |
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Keep at it. I like your approach. Go for the 13" discs
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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rubbachicken
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2004
Posts: 3058
Location: socal
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:54 am Post subject: |
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keep at it
us chickens are watching
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lucy our westy
lucy's BIG adventure
meet 'burni'
markswagen {mobile mechanic} san diego area all early VW's cared for.
619 201 0310 or 617 935 4182 |
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joseph928
Samba Member
Joined: September 22, 2011
Posts: 2114
Location: flagstaff az.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:37 am Post subject: brakes |
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| rsxsr wrote: |
| Domo wrote: |
Save yourself the time, headache, and possible failure. Get the big brake kit from VC. I have it on my '85 (old-style hubs like yours), and it is a very simple and effective upgrade.
I had the whole conversion done in two hours. |
Now where is the "fun" in that? Anybody can buy something and bolt it on. I can lay awake in bed pondering a scheduled meeting for the next morning at work or I can lay there pondering how I will determine the offset for mounting the calipers. I find pondering the vanagon upgrades is almost as enjoyable as implementing the upgrade. Cheers. |
 I agree with Domo I have sa brakes they work great, rather spend my time and money on other projects. Racing brakes' christ this is a bus, next you will want a parachute going 150 mph ha! 
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1987 syncro westy tin top sun roof , GW2.3, rear locker, decoupler, Gary Lee tire rack & winch mount, lift, south african grill, big brakes , rhein alloy ,15 BFG AT, Fiamma 10 foot awning ,140 watt rear 85 watt front solar , mppt, truckfridge, automatic fire extinguishing system, tencent oil cooler, And a RMW SS exhaust! - 1971 bug convertible 1776 engine- 2010 Subaru turbo - 1993 Toyota 4x4 truck - 1999 Harley 95 CI, big bore, Andrews cams . Also 80-84- vans. Stock 65 sunroof bug. |
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17123
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:32 am Post subject: |
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You know, it is no wonder I am resistant to posting my projects. The discs I intend to use are cast iron vented discs. Just like you would find on any modern vehicle. The one pictured happens to be from my race car. There are companies that supply parts to the custom car and racing communities. I can purchase these off the shelf discs for next to nothing compared to what "speciality" shops might sell. I can also specify the diameter and have 3 options of the thickness.
I would be hesitant to put anything of the van that was from South Africa. Only because I constantly see people asking, "where do I get this SA part?"
Caliper piston sizing is probably more important than getting a larger disc. The better aftermarket caliper companies offer many options of piston sizes in each model caliper. That does not make them "racing" calipers, but lets me choose a size piston that will match my current stock master cylinder.
So, to sumarize, a vented disc, with a properly sized caliper, does not make it a "racing brake". But a properly size brake hydraulic system, tied to a quality caliper and a suitable disc, makes a heck of a racing brake system.
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dobryan
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Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16503
Location: Brookeville, MD
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Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12115
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:55 am Post subject: |
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I loves me some build-threads. Bring em!
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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danfromsyr
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15144
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:56 am Post subject: |
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I agree
and you should be able to use some Wilwood (3.5in mount spacing)calipers depending on your rotor offset.
or possibly the Jaguar/Toyota 4runner calipers as we're discussing in the other thread.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=459573&start=180
keep going on this good work, I have a bunch of 80-85 vans in the family and there's no way we can afford SA brake upgrades for all of them (then the compounded parts replacement hassels) NO WAY.
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j_dirge
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:01 am Post subject: |
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Build!
Very cool idea by the way.. This would solve some of the ET issues with using Audi disk hats, no?
(Audi disk hat adds 8mm offset)
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-89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
| danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17123
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:09 am Post subject: |
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The brake upgrade is still on the back burner for now. Work has been crazy, fortunately and I started a simple task of replacing the sinks in our bathroom. Opened a huge can of worms, so we are using the spare bathroom sink for now. We are getting an Espar heater from Santa. So, I may try to get that installed sooner than later. I won't bother to post that project.
The brake upgrade is really the last thing on my to do wish list. I have run out of real projects. I was suprised to see any activity on this thread today. I figured it had been bumped far enough down that unless someone was specifically searching, would not have come across it. I will post once I get the hub drilled and start to tackle the caliper mounting.
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17123
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| j_dirge wrote: |
Build!
Very cool idea by the way.. This would solve some of the ET issues with using Audi disk hats, no?
(Audi disk hat adds 8mm offset) |
Yes, the wheel mounting surface would be in the identical location and the hub centric wheel postioning would be maintained. So, no additional maching, spacers, etc.
The vanagon hub has a pretty thick mounting surface. From memory it is .720" or about 3/4 of an inch, so there is room to remove some meat, but you need to be sure there is ample thread left to secure the wheel lugs.
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ALIKA T3
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Joined: July 30, 2009
Posts: 6351
Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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thummmper
Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2009
Posts: 2015
Location: Meadow Valley, California Republic
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:43 am Post subject: |
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awesome mark! your logic exceeds!! youve heard from the negative 10%, now youlle hear from us.
the adjustability is a recipe for a real sound system. |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:18 am Post subject: |
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Git 'r done. |
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Destructo
Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2006
Posts: 405
Location: Westhampton, MA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:43 am Post subject: |
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rsxsr, I totally understand the apprehension of taking the time to document and post your van projects. Not only does it add extra time to the project as a whole, but you get two guys, who combined don't have the posts and years you have on this site, giving you advice on the easy way out. You wonder if they even dream at night...
I documented a clutch line fix thinking "Wow, the Samba guys and gals are gonna really appreciate this!"...I got 1 response. At that point I was wishing someone would at least tell me I did it wrong or how much better they could have done it.
Oh well, it won't keep me from actively participating in this thread and sharing info. I'm watching this beacause I find thinkning outside the box is super interesting. Thanks for your participation.
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17123
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Destructo wrote: |
rsxsr, I totally understand the apprehension of taking the time to document and post your van projects. Not only does it add extra time to the project as a whole, but you get two guys, who combined don't have the posts and years you have on this site, giving you advice on the easy way out. You wonder if they even dream at night...
I documented a clutch line fix thinking "Wow, the Samba guys and gals are gonna really appreciate this!"...I got 1 response. At that point I was wishing someone would at least tell me I did it wrong or how much better they could have done it.
Oh well, it won't keep me from actively participating in this thread and sharing info. I'm watching this beacause I find thinkning outside the box is super interesting. Thanks for your participation. |
This? >http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5635148#5635148 ? Great documentation with a desired result. Thank you for sharing it. By the way, I think you can buy that line from Van Cafe. 
I worked on the line for 20 years on flat rate. It is extremely difficult and time consuming for me to slow down and document my work for the Samba. That said, I am always impressed with those that take the time to do so. I can not count how many ideas I have stolen from other members and copied, not for a living, but for our van. The list is too long of members to thank and I would miss someone anyhow. When I work, I am always driven to get the job done. Photos and documentation just don't happen. I am trying to get better at slowing down and I appreciate the comments of support. mark
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1fin
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:15 am Post subject: |
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What kind of bolts should be used to attach the rotor ring? AN6 bolts were mentioned. Should the stock rotor be drilled and tapped to accept the bolts or should the holes be drilled through and secured with a lock nut on the other side?
Thanks |
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