75 FI 2.0 litre Type 4 bus crankshaft oil seal question

[ser123ser]

I have just rebuilt the motor this past year and have a crankshaft oil seal leaking problem.

I am pulling the motor for the 2nd time this week and wonder about the seal landing in the case.

Does the seal on a type 4 go all the way into the case and land in the bottom of the case recess or is it landed and left flush with the outer case like in a type 1?

I have checked my bently manual with no answer. Then the John Muir book with no answer. I have checked the Chilton manual with no answer. Finally I have the "red" tom wilson book "how to rebuild your VW" and it has no answer.

I have read thru a bunch of post's here and on other forums and noted in a few spots that the seal goes all the way into the seal area recess in the case and lands at the bottom and is not left flush with the case.

Can any one confirm this?

My flywheel sealing surface is clean and void of scars however i have not sanded it. Will do that on this pull. When i pulled the seal the first time it was flush with the case and the leak was coming right out of the sealing surface where the flywheel goes in. Obvious fault. Figured at that point the seal did not work and i will jsut repeat what was there.

I have been using the "red" colored seal not the full black one. I had my machinest set the first seal after i built the long block and had him do the shimming "set endplay" of the crank. He set the seal flush. Went back thru my pics of the tear down and the original seal was set flush with the block.

Look forward to your comments.

Thanks

Steve
Perris CA. "Outstanding in my field"

[1975 Kombi]

I have done mine flush. Is the leaking coming from around the outside of the seal or from the shaft to the seal. If you add sealant to the outside of the seal keep an eye on it for a period of time in case the seal walks out of the housing. Flush ensures that the seal will not be damaged from the outside. How is the crank for wear marks or any shaft resizing.
_________________
Brett

“He’s decieving you boy! Reach into his pocket and take what he’s got.” Mr. Crabbs.

75 Westy auto
03 Jetta TDI
71 SB
74 Westy
Licensed pilot (single engine land VFR)
--
Rust In Pieces: 72 Bug, 73 Bug, 81 Rabbit LS D 2D, 83 Rabbit D 2D, 84 Jetta TD GL, 85 Jetta D, 68 Z28 RS 302, 91 Passat 16v

[busdaddy]

Are you lubricating the new seals before the flywheel goes on?

Here's some reading on seal differences: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=477032
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[SGKent]

I set them flush if they will go flush, some sit proud of the hole. I found that the best way is to clean around the sealing area on the case and put the seal in with the outer dry, then use RTV around the seal outer and case to be sure it can't leak. If you use RTV on the actual seal sometimes it is so slippery they will come out on their own. The use a light grease and oil on both the seal and flywheel to be sure the seal is well greased for the flywheel. If you are painting anything do not get paint on the seal surface where the flywheel touches it or it will take about 1 second of spinning to burn up the seal.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[ser123ser]

Thanks everyone. The big question is "does the seal go all the way into the recess and bottom out" ? When I set the seal flush to the outside of the case there is about 1/8" behind the seal to the bottom of the recess? BusDaddy I think you noted a year or two ago on a prior post that the seal bottoms into the recess?

The leak is coming from the inside "flywheel shaft surface" not the outer part of the seal against the case. So far there has been sealer on the outside of the seal as you suggest SG Kent. This last time around I used sealant on the inside of the recess, let it set then pushed in the seal. I was extra careful to make sure the oil return hole was not plugged by sealant or anything else. The hole was clear on my last look before putting on the flywheel. One more thing I did not mention before. I put in the new o ring and gasketcinched the face of the flywheel to the crank shaft face as the "red book recommended" by tom wilson. My machinest did the same thing when he put on the flywheel. The leaks are not coming from there.

I have used this time the case sealer gasketcinch. This stuff so far is great. Used it to seal the cases and I have no leaks. My type 1 using the
silicone RTV stuff weeps a little in a couple of places on the case.

I did lubricate the flywheel shaft last time. I just did not sand it with the 220 that is recommended.

Brett, the crank is new. Flywheel was in good shape so I re-surfaced the clutch area and re-used it. The seal surface on the flywheel has no scars or gouges.

Thanks again Everyone
Steve

[SGKent]

it is unusual for a seal to leak when all the conditions you mention are met. Grease and or a little oil on the seal or surface area of the flyhweel that goes into the seal will let it spin without burning the seal. Just make sure you have the correct seal. Look carefully at the back of the case for cracks or a gallery / galley plug coming loose.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[1975 Kombi]

Distorting the seal maybe while seating it but I can't see that happening to more then one.
_________________
Brett

“He’s decieving you boy! Reach into his pocket and take what he’s got.” Mr. Crabbs.

75 Westy auto
03 Jetta TDI
71 SB
74 Westy
Licensed pilot (single engine land VFR)
--
Rust In Pieces: 72 Bug, 73 Bug, 81 Rabbit LS D 2D, 83 Rabbit D 2D, 84 Jetta TD GL, 85 Jetta D, 68 Z28 RS 302, 91 Passat 16v

[ser123ser]

Ok thanks again guys will have the motor on the floor on Friday weather permiting in ca this weekend.

when I went back on the link sent by bus daddy there was a note in that link about setting the seal at the bottom of the recess.

I have thought about this a lot regarding the physics of the seal bottomed vs flush with the case.

If the seal is bottomed the oil may not puddle enough in the area to drip out the shaft portion of the seal. The area will be smaller with slightly more pressure to push the oil out the vent hole into the sump.

Of course the inverse of the seal flush with the case gives greater oil puddle area for it to gravity it's way back into the sump. ??

Hope that all made sense.??

It's all a bit of a mind f!?@k at this point, until I just try bottoming the seal in the recess and sand the flywheel shaft??

The upside is I am getting fast at type 4 motor drops....

Just like sorting out the injection problems I am now pretty much a expert on fuel injection.

Something about doing it wrong several times is just my curse to fully understand a system.

Can't wait to lower the thing an do my first beam change out.

The upside the bus just runs tits and is generally the best riding nicest handling Vw I have ever had. Really top of the pinnacle of engineering by Vw. The drips just kill me though.

Steve perris ca
Outstanding in my field

[Wildthings]

You have replaced the o-ring that fits inside the groove inside the flywheel haven't you?

[SGKent]

he said yes earlier and even used gasgacinch on one try. Personally I don't think it is the seal. More likely the case seam or a plug failing.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[ser123ser]

Sg Kent thanks. Tomorrow morning I am dropping the motor and will really check the plugs. The local old guy at car craft insisted that it's the plugs also.

What just makes me nuts is I told my machinest to pull the plugs and plug them with greased plugs. He told me naw, on a type 4 it's not that big of a deal. I let him talk me out of it. Dammit!!

Like the great one (Dr. bob hoover) says your the mechanic in charge and I should have flying insisted.

So"..........

I am just not interested at this point pulling the plugs and doing a tap thing. Too flying late if I can't keep the shavings out I am doomed and I sure the hell don't want to split the cases.

Plan b, Jb weld; this flying kills me. This is half ass but if it works?

Any opinions about the Jb weld thing?

This is all of course if this is even the problem? I am going to land the seal all the way into the recess. Sand the flywheel, oil the thing and see what happens next.

I think I will post pics on this pull.
Steve perris outstanding in my field.

[busdaddy]

Most of the holes can be tapped while assembled, pump grease into the hole, tap, then vacuum out, it's also good to tip the engine so the hole is downhill and flush solvent through the gallery, then move on to the next one.
As for bottoming the seal do what you like, either should work, confirm the drain hole behind the seal isn't clogged with case sealant too.
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[ser123ser]

Thanks bus daddy, I forgot to mention about checking the oil return hole that is something I am going to check also.
Steve

[josh]

I've always installed it flush. I don't know how the mechanic could say a type4 engine doesn't need the galley plugs done. Loose galley plugs are a well known type 4 problem.
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[ser123ser]

Well………it has been 100 miles and the oil leak has stopped.

As noted above I pulled the engine and checked and performed the following.

The oil galley plugs were not leaking.

The seal was leaking in the same manner I found it the last time.

I hand sanded with 220 grit the flywheel surface and removed all of the very minor imperfections. Should have done this before on the initial rebuild.

I landed the seal all the way into the recess. It is not landed flush with the case anymore.

This time I used assembly lube on the seal and flywheel. Lots of it instead of oil.

So far no drips.

thanks everyone for the help and opinions.

steve perris outstanding in my field

[busdaddy]

Good to hear, fingers crossed that you'e got it licked this time.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.

Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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[blue77bay]

FYI ,i have read and i am certain Jake confirmed that the outer case surface is NOT machined square to the crank ,its left as cast ,the inner surface is machined and is where the seal locates to ,so, you must seat the seal fully so that it is square to the crank ,this is the opposite to the T1 case which has the outer surface squared up and is why you can seat the seal flush.
Fire away guys
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[ser123ser]

Blue 77 bay - thanks for that, I have read this opinion before in one or two places here and on another site. What you say is not common knowledge and in my case it seems like it might have been the deal. I think this is the one detail that is missed in the books I mentioned above.

Here is the kicker, I have the type DVD bug me vid thing and I am sure the guy doing the main work is jake raby and in that video he lands the seal flush with the case. I watched the video a bunch of times recently to see how the seal should go.

P
That is why I landed it flush on the 2nd try. This third try was a leap and chance to try something different as the flush landing was not working for me.

Also I re-surfaced and re-used my old flywheel on this Build. I also had it balanced to everything including the pressure plate. But I did not sand the surface and it just was not that bad. Causally speaking it looked fine. Now it looks freaking new. So who knows but maybe if I would have bought a new flywheel maybe the landing of the seal would not matter in its position.

At this point I did not want to chuck the flywheel as I would loose my balancing of that component.

Thanks again. Steve perris ca outstanding in my field

[SGKent]

[Jake Raby]

The variations in the seals and crankcases are critical to installation depth. Since the video was produced seals have drastically changed and the crankcase that we used was a GE code which make it a bit different from earlier engines.

Most seals today are pure junk and will leak no matter the install procedures.
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell"