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wizzerd
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 10:03 am    Post subject: New buyer advice Reply with quote

Hi folks. New member here looking to join the owner's club. I've long had a soft spot for vanagons but never seriously considered the thought of owning one until recently when one popped up for sale in my neighborhood. I haven't shopped around and seen a bunch of different vans up close - just this one because well, it kinda fell in my lap. Looking for advice on value/price and if/how much I should offer vs. keep looking... it has low miles but also has rust. Ball is in my court - the (unsurprisingly friendly) owner is graciously waiting for an answer from me before listing it or putting the sign back in the window, but I don't want him to wait around on me too long.

About the van:
1990 Vanagon Westfalia camper
Stock 2.1L motor w/ 80k "original" miles
Sounds like it's been in CA for the last 20ish years but spent it's first 10+ years in PA
Upgrades include 15" Mercedes wheels, new bumper and exterior lights from GW, new tent
Interior is decent
Repainted in mid-00's but there IS seam rust underneath (see pics)
Owner is asking $32.5k OBO

Drives smooth, no immediately apparent issues with tranny, cooling, etc. My main concern is rust... The jack points and frame look OK but there is some seam rust showing in several spots. I've read through several seam rust topics on here and it looks like this could be a $10-15k project to snuff out, but can't quite gauge how bad this is comparatively and if it will warrant the full assault.

Appreciate any/all advice in advance!



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dhaavers
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 10:14 am    Post subject: Re: New buyer advice Reply with quote

Wow, great pics…way to go in eyes wide open.

Certainly a real opportunity lost on that repaint…your budget for cleaning that up isn’t unreasonable. Evil or Very Mad

$32+k seems spendy to me, but I’m cheap which is why I drive a rusty van.

Having said that, I <wish> my rig had only 80k miles. Can you verify that the speedo/odo are working?

Cali/SW USA is a great market for vans in good condition. Personally, I’d keep looking for a better example.

Others will chime in…I’ll watch. Cool

- Dave
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Mateo83
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: New buyer advice Reply with quote

With that much obvious rust/cancer. The price should be about half or less.

Next question is does it pass smog?
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E1
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 10:49 am    Post subject: Re: New buyer advice Reply with quote

Agree the price is too high… but if it *really has* only 80K miles, to me every hundred is worth at least $5K in price.

That low mileage would be worth far more to me in use that whatever the rust would take to at least mitigate and pretty up — regardless of it showing back up over time.

In California prices, people may well line up to those low miles. Verify somehow, talk to all prior owners you can find.

*If having to buy one on only the West Coast*, I’d pay up to $25K for that in a minute if wanting it and no better options existed.
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Last edited by E1 on Fri Jan 12, 2024 10:54 am; edited 2 times in total
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jimf909 Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 10:50 am    Post subject: Re: New buyer advice Reply with quote

wizzerd wrote:
I haven't shopped around and seen a bunch of different vans up close - just this one because well, it kinda fell in my lap. Looking for advice on value/price and if/how much I should offer vs. keep looking... it has low miles but also has rust.


Welcome! A Vanagon is a good thing to consider adding to one's life (for people who like to keep old cars running and can't resist the most space efficient vehicle ever made).

It looks like a nice van!

- Don't worry about waiting on it. If it was $14.5 or $16.5K it would have fallen into your lap. At $32.5K this is a van that will sit for a long time unless someone with a lot of money, little patience and no knowledge of the Vanagon market snaps it up.
- There's probably a lot of rust hidden. I'm not a seam rust hater (no camping trip was ever ruined by seam rust!) but if you want a rust-free van and don't want a major project this isn't the right van.
- Low mile vans that have been sitting can be more work than a well-maintained van with 250K miles. Don't be afraid of a good van with 200K miles. Similarly, 80K miles does not make a gem to be snapped up.
- Those wheels are no longer an upgrade, they're just wheels. I'd be more concerned about the tires on the wheels (are they proper load rating showing the owner cared and will they need replacement soon?)
- As for an offer, given the starting point it's hard to suggest something that wouldn't be considered lowballing. As presented I wouldn't offer my much more than $16.5 unless this is an itch that needs to be scratched now.

Keep shopping, read the FAQ buyer's guides, ask questions. You'll find the right van!
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Abscate wrote:
Do not get killed, do not kill others.


Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.

Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro).
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E1
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 11:10 am    Post subject: Re: New buyer advice Reply with quote

Edited to add more points…

Have a valid bus shop inspect it. Jim makes several great points above, regardless of our price points.

My post presumes:
— Verified miles!
— DRIVE IT, and as many miles as they’ll let you
— Go over road dips and make sure everything feels light and not spongy. Listen for ball joint clunks. Steer back and forth and look for even steering a suspension responses.
— Stomp on the brakes to check for good feedback
— Check that it runs well when barely off-idle, at low rpm, 1st gear, very small bits of throttle modulation without “jumpiness” say a ton about proper engine and systems health.
— Study the receipts, the more documented upgrades and replacements — generally — the better.
— Ask the owner if they only used German or parts by real van suppliers, facilitated by simply asking “Where do you get parts?”
— Compression all within maybe 10%, all above 140, no or negligible leakdown, tranny oil changed and drain plug magnet clean (even if you pay for that), all systems operating well, nothing beyond the seams needing immediate money
— We paid $18K on a $23K offering in Portland in 2018 — for an ‘84. I’d suspect an identical 1990 would have been $20-22K. Had 129,000 miles. No seam rust but equal bodywork needed. If having to guess I’d say a $22K van then might be $27K today.
— Hence my thoughts of paying $25K for this van *if* inspection reflects the low miles — (clues are just how worn things look; cabinets and bed hardware and other bits worn by miles more so than time can reveal a lot) — and the number of vans to buy are slim


If the seller will hold it, spend all weekend seeing what’s out there and look at as many as possible.
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‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."

— Colin Chapman


Last edited by E1 on Fri Jan 12, 2024 11:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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Red Ryder
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 11:19 am    Post subject: Re: New buyer advice Reply with quote

Unless the ODO is wrong, that is freaky low miles. I would also expect the interior to be near pristine. As previously stated low miles can be good or bad, and it is unlikely you will discover how/why it was stored. If still interested, invest in a thorough PPI and proceed from there. Maintenance records would be a plus. For $30K it should definitely be in the range of “drive and smile”.
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Last edited by Red Ryder on Fri Jan 12, 2024 11:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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vanagondan
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 11:22 am    Post subject: Re: New buyer advice Reply with quote

My opinion, don't spend that much money on a 2WD van right now. Syncros are going for around the same price right now and if you buy a 2WD you'll soon be wanting a Syncro anyways. Just go for a Syncro right away and avoid the syncro envy.
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jimf909 Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 11:39 am    Post subject: Re: New buyer advice Reply with quote

^^* Laughing Laughing Laughing True, but you'll trade syncro envy for bank account anxeity. Shocked Laughing Cool
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Abscate wrote:
Do not get killed, do not kill others.


Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.

Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro).
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16CVs Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 11:50 am    Post subject: Re: New buyer advice Reply with quote

What people ask and what they get are usually two different things. Don't underplay the lasting effects of rust. Fixing rust is not like replacing an engine or rebuilding suspension.

That van has many areas with decent rust bubbling that I would imagine are Fugly underneath that paint job.

That van would would have to be cheap before I'd buy it.I'd buy a a crashed van before I bought that. to me mileage on a 35 year old vehicle does not matter, You'll end up visiting every corner of that van.

Good luck and choose wisely, Grasshopper !

Stacy
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PDXWesty
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 11:50 am    Post subject: Re: New buyer advice Reply with quote

Miles are meaningless on a 30 year old car. All the rubber and bushings will age out and will need replacing regardless.

To me it looks like a $20k van just because you're in CA.
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E1
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 12:02 pm    Post subject: Re: New buyer advice Reply with quote

Clarifying, I was referring to *every single piece* of running, suspension, braking, cooking, climate control, cabinetry, latches, and all things that indeed wear more with miles and use — not rubber.

But there’s also wisdom in seeing all the parts and service records that show replacement of things more age-dependent, as posted.

I’ll take 80,000-mile systems over 280,000 (like our first van) all day long. Surprised any old car owner would even dispute this.
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Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."

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Andymon
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 12:56 pm    Post subject: Re: New buyer advice Reply with quote

IMHO...that van is worth about half of what he is asking. I'd pass and keep looking. There are a lot better vans out there in the $20K range that are twice what that van is.
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calsurf
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 1:28 pm    Post subject: Re: New buyer advice Reply with quote

IF the mileage is correct & verifiable, then yeah that could bump the value up some. The interior and the rubber on the foot pedals should look great. The engine should still be solid with near perfect/good compression (135-140'ish I believe)

IF the rust is throughout those areas is more than just surface rust then yes, that could get pricey as you've already calculated.
IF the van needs a lot of other items, tranny, brakes, bushings, etc. (ALL VANs need something) then that should be tossed into the cost mix bowl.

My new'ish 1991 Westy with only 113K documented miles was living 2 states over with it's 1st owner family. Took me 6 mos to find. A little old lady (for real), daughter of the original buyer sold it to me. $17K plus another $6K later she's finally coming together as I hoped. But, far from finished. Oh yeah, it's been well over a year of wrenching it myself. Throw in repair time/repair cost/purchase cost/actually enjoying "The Van Life" into the equation.

Welcome to the dysfunctional but fun Vanagon family if you get one.

The bane and/or blessing is the internet, maybe this seller saw this BAT sale recently...still boggles my mind, but hey it's just paper Monopoly money right?
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1990-volkswagen-vanagon-westfalia-28/


Last edited by calsurf on Fri Jan 12, 2024 1:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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elizer Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 1:36 pm    Post subject: Re: New buyer advice Reply with quote

Getting a sorted rust free van is cheaper in the long run regardless of miles. Let the PO pay for the labor of conversions, brake upgrades, etc.
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Mateo83
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 2:09 pm    Post subject: Re: New buyer advice Reply with quote

If that is your price range, I'd look in the classifieds here.
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Hazey
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 2:23 pm    Post subject: Re: New buyer advice Reply with quote

As someone in the ‘actively looking’ boat for the last few months - this one is overpriced with that much rust. If the mileage is true and can be confirmed somebody will buy it for 26k or so, but there are some on here with absolutely no rust and confirmed low Mileage in that price range.

Keep tabs on the classifieds here, see what sell prices are on BringATrailer, and just read everything you can and you’ll get a lot more comfortable with the market.

Do keep in mind this is coming from somebody who hasn’t even pulled the trigger yet though, so maybe take what I think with a grain of salt …
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bobbyblack Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 2:25 pm    Post subject: Re: New buyer advice Reply with quote

Ahoy, welcome to the asylum!

First, its such a shame to see all that respray paint that went over rust... Like the person who was doing the work was like "I guess the next person will have to fix that, I don't want to, I just want it sold NOW"

I don't see dings-dents, that is nice.. most likely the bodywork was done since there are always some little pieces of 'heritage' on these old boxes. That seems to make another point to the PO just getting it done to sell, sad (I think it is spelled "Bondo"). I'm afraid that an actual restore would be much more than your $10-15K. Just looking below the kitchenette (above the LP tank) rust line, that says in capitol letters "there's no floor behind the fridge" and you'll end up having to take the entire kitchen and cabinets out (not the rear most one, usually) but the rear bench too unless you become some kind of genius I've not heard of before on how to get the cabinets out. You will have to source new sheet metal for the parts that are gone back there. Most notably, the piece of floor that fills the spot where a RHD slider section would be if it were RHD... Vanagons CAN and some DO have sliders on both sides.. So, then you give a shout out across the pond and get a nice piece that fits correctly. Then, lets talk about a paint job.

Ahh, how I LOVE to think of having my bus painted. Then I read about how that gets done. Well, I just don't have the $10K for a proper paint job which involves all windows out, which means (usually) all new window seals, which then leads to "does that guy really know how to install this kind of seal?" I am a DIY guy, so I have only myself to blame for the drips I have from one of my seals. But I digress; prep for a full paint job takes TONS of time. It adds up fast. California (and many other states) have banned solvent based paints (or so I am told), so do you know about water based paint jobs? Would you send that bus down across the southern border? That would take some bravado. Anyway, what I mean to say is, of all the VWs I have come to know, the Vanagon is likely the most expensive full paint job out there.

I'll wind down on a tidbit that I find humorous; The same week that buying a Ferrari Testarossa as an investment / collectible, the Vanagon was added to the same list. The bus you are looking at would not be a good investment unless the $50K+ you'll spend on it will then be parked in a glass showcase for 20 years, not driven, and having had no fun in, just like the Ferrari would have to be. Just my 2 cents, but Westy's are for having fun in, going places, making memories, and perhaps even inspiring the young'uns to follow suit on their own crazy adventures.

All that aside, if you have the cash, get whatever you want! If it were my ~$55K in cash on hand, I surely would not buy THAT bus.

I like to quote a friend at this point "A bit of rust never ruined my camping fun" .. Get yourself a "starter bus" and work up to that $50K version after you get to know these beauties. You'll need to accumulate tools and knowledge, and why not do that on something that is a bit more budget friendly? We all make mistakes, its just a lot less painful to make a mistake on a $5K bus than one 10X that price..

-bobby
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SCM
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 2:34 pm    Post subject: Re: New buyer advice Reply with quote

Interesting that it has a rear antisway bar.
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floodwood
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 4:31 pm    Post subject: Re: New buyer advice Reply with quote

I just bought a similar van in CA for 20-25k, to use as a price point
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