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Variations On a Well Designed German Setup: Steering, etc...
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ORANGECRUSHer
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Question:
On later style boxes, is there a trick to getting these two pieces apart?
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I can't tell if the threaded adjuster coming out of the lid is actually threaded in the lid or if I can just hammer it through.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ORANGECRUSHer wrote:
I don't know why I haven't read this before? You made an interesting read. I haven't finished yet, but I can't wait to ask a question.

You refer a lot to modifying steering components with welded on gussets and brackets. My question is, I've heard that heating up steering components is a bad idea- at what point does welding all these reinforcements start to degrade the original parts? Or is the fact that your adding reinforcement suddenly cancel out the weakening of the component?


Stock spindles are forged and heat treated as one piece. Welding will take some of the temper out locally which does soften the metal around the weld. That said, by welding in gussets you can increase the overall rigidity of the component. Just don't kill the steering knuckles with heat. Take your time and weld it small sections rather than all on one shot. It won't hurt it any.
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Brian
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you go outer, do it longer than I did. Go almost all the way up to the little slits on the end.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brian wrote:
dirtkeeper wrote:
You say you made the insert piece 2x the length of the tie rod ends shorter. The first time I did mine with a insert about 2 " short...... It bent right there .


I'm in fear I made mine too short.

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I'm about to redo the front of my baja as well and I think the sleeve over sounds like a more convenient solution than the inner rod since I will be having someone else align the car and trying to guess how far the ends will be screwed in sounds sketchy.
I bet a sleeve over will help protect that rod from adjustment damage in the future as well. I know the rods I got on there got pretty chewed up along the shafts by all my messing around with them last summer with a pipe wrench. Can't wait!
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ORANGECRUSHer
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know why I haven't read this before? You made an interesting read. I haven't finished yet, but I can't wait to ask a question.

You refer a lot to modifying steering components with welded on gussets and brackets. My question is, I've heard that heating up steering components is a bad idea- at what point does welding all these reinforcements start to degrade the original parts? Or is the fact that your adding reinforcement suddenly cancel out the weakening of the component?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you would be just fine Brian. It would take a pretty big jolt on the steering (side swiping a curb at a decent speed for example) to bend the ends. Because the exposed ends are pretty short, they are going to be pretty stiff and not likely to bend. It's the whole slender column principle at work. Long slender columns are more likely to buckle under load than short ones of the same diameter.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On my truck yea Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is that on a bus?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not like I'm going to be able to go fast enough to seriously damage those anyways Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The sleeves probably could have been an inch longer, but that isn't to bad. Nice thing about metal is you can always add more. Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dirtkeeper wrote:
You say you made the insert piece 2x the length of the tie rod ends shorter. The first time I did mine with a insert about 2 " short...... It bent right there .


I'm in fear I made mine too short.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, find your toe adjustment first. I have always kept rod ends threaded equaly on both sides of the tie rod...that way if they have to be taken appart, I only have to count the turns to remove one side to reset my toe in upon reassembly. Habits Wink
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dirtkeeper
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You say you made the insert piece 2x the length of the tie rod ends shorter. The first time I did mine with a insert about 2 " short...... It bent right there . Next time I made the insert about 1/2" short of actual space between the adjusted/aligned tie rod ends.....after first setting alignment.. And haven't had any problem since......except last time I got an alignment there was an issue with lack of adjustment room..due to too long of an insert..so the adjustment had to be compensated with the other tie rod...not correct but seemed to be fine...... Now I have a new front end and it all adjusted up fine and I am back at being just about 1/2" short on the internal insert..

Any way I read you saying to make the insert 2x the threaded length of the tie rod end which depending on your final adjustment may be too short.....at least as stated above in my case made a perfect week spot to bend
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Going back to tie rods...

This is a trick that some of my buddies and I use to beef up stock tie rods.

We use 1/2in cold rolled round stock. You can pick up this steel bar stuff at any steel yard...a dime a dozen. Seriously, 3-4 feet costs only a few bucks. I think stores like Menards also has some stuff in stock, but I am sure it is much more expensive to get it there. I got a 4 foot section so that I would have enough to make a spare long tie rod should I mess up the first one.

I say "mess up" because there is one little trick to it. The 1/2in round stock is a little to big to fit in. More on that in a sec...

First order of business is to cut the rod to length. Make it as long as possible. I subtracted 2x the length of the threaded portion of the rod end from the length of my tie rods. Once cut to length I chamfered the edges. This helps keep the internal threads in the tie rod from getting jacked up. With the edges chamfered I then took an angle grinder with a fine sanding disk and buzzed over the surface of the round stock until I could just force it into the tie rod. Be careful not to take too much material off. If you can push it a couple inches past the internal threads by hand, you boned up. Make a new one, and be more careful about how much material you take off! Once the fit was good I pounded it in with a hammer. Once flush with the edge, I used a drift and hammer to pound it down inside the tie rod until it was centered. Then I screwed on the rod ends and called it a day.

My buddies have used this trick for quite a while. It kept their rods from kinking and bending. You can still weld a sleeve over the tie rods for extra protection, but we have found this trick to be adequate for what stock rod ends hold up to. So, if you plan of making a play baja or buggy to bomb around the woods on weekends, this is just the ticket. Racing is a different story. I would recommend new tie rods and heavy duty rod ends for that kind of business.

Here is a picture of the round stock pounded 2/3rds of the way into the tie rod...just so you can see what I have been talking about. It is pretty self explanatory.

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Vanapplebomb
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought maybe I could add just a little bit about what I did with the hardware, and then show off some final pictures. At any rate, here is some of the assorted hardware...

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I got a universal rag joint kit at my local auto parts store. It came with some stupid studs (which I threw out) and some nifty washers. Then I got a stock style rubber rag joint. It came with out the metal inserts. The holes are 10mm, so I decided to be crafty and use some shoulder bolts to hold the thing together. The shoulder bolts have a 10mm shoulder with an M8 threaded portion. I also had some M10 tooling washers to use as spacers because the smallest shoulder bolt I had has a 15mm long shoulder. The thick M10 tooling washer fit perfectly.

This close up kinda shows you how the shoulder bolt and the nifty little fun shaped washer dohickle thingy sit...

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On the back side, I slipped on the M10 tooling washer, then I bolted down the coupling yoke. I tightened the NyLock nut all the way down as far as it would go, until the 10mm shoulder mated solidly with the yoke. The combination of the 15mm long shoulder, the fun shaped washer, and the 10mm tooling washer allowed for just the right amount of compression on the rag joint...enough to give it a good squeeze, but not enough to damage it. This takes a lot of strain off the bolt holes.

Here are some pictures of the final product...

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It may seem over the top, but I just worked with the stuff I had on hand...shoulder bolts, tooling washers, etc...

There is nothing wrong with using the stock M8 bolts and metal inserts for the rag joint. It worked for VW, and they knew what they were doing. If that is what you have, go for it. If you don't, then get creative and use what you have on hand Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote from another post of mine in a different thread. This is a continuation of the same steering box...

Vanapplebomb wrote:
I cleaned some of the corrosion off the worm gear with a small, fine, oiled file.

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I also filled in the heavily pitted area on the sealing surface of the cover with some JB Kwik Weld, then filed it flat to restore the sealing surface.

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The parts got a few shots of primer followed with either black or yellow paint.

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New oil seals were purchased through a local industrial supply place and the rubber/fiber gasket material as well as the freeze plug was purchased through a local auto parts store. I traced and cut out a new gasket using the old one as a template. The sector shaft seal and freeze plug were driven into the housing and the input shaft seal was driven into the worm adjustor. Both oil seals were lubricated with grease.

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With the seals installed I proceeded to drive in the bearings. The bearings were salvageable after some light polishing of the races. I packed them with grease before installing them. I first drove the one in behind the freeze plug. Then I dropped in the worm shaft, slid the adjustor bearing over the shaft, then drove it in until it was nice and snug against the worm shaft.

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Next I wiped a little bit of silicone on the end of the worm adjustor. This just helps it seal well when it is set in place. The silicone is not a good adhesive, so future adjustments can easily be made. I left the pinch bolt out to be installed at a later time after the final adjustments.

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After the worm adjustor was set in place I installed the sector shaft and gear. I lightly greased the worm and sector shaft as well as the ball socket and gear that fits into it.

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The sector shaft was slipped into the bore in the steering box and the ball socket was placed over the gear. Once the shaft was in place the adjustor spring and pin were well greased and slipped into the bore on the top of the sector shaft.

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Now the box was ready to be bolted together with the spring washers. I torqued the top four M8 bolts to 20ft*lbs

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Now the box is ready to be filled with extreme pressure gear oil. Whatever you use for your transmission is fine. I will be using GL5 80-90W gear oil. Please note that the gear that fits into the ball socket on the sector shaft is a yellow metal, not steel, so be sure to use a gear oil that is safe to use with yellow metals. This was a problem with older high sulfur Gl5 gear oils, but virtually all modern gear oils are safe to use with yellow metals.

Once the box is filled with oil the fill plug can be tightened down and the sector shaft adjusting screw and jam nut can be installed and adjusted.

I have yet to find a good spacer to use for the "washer trick" with these old steering boxes with the large 28mm shafts. When I do I will bolt up the drop arm and call it a done deal Wink

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I took apart a large shaft worm and sector steering box about a month ago and thought I would post up some of my progress on cleaning it up and getting it ready to reuse.

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I started stripping down the steering box by removing the drop arm and the toasted coupler. In the process I had a big red flag pop up. When I removed the lower stud beneath the gear box, no oil came out. Hmmm...

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After removing the cover I found this disaster...now I know why a 53 year old steering box wasn't weeping a single drop from either of it's seals. There was not a single drop of oil in the box. This is what the result of more than a few years of neglect looks like.

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Despite looking like a lost cause, I think that it will work ok after a good cleanup. Well, time to rip the rest of this guy apart...First up? The sector shaft! It is a tight fit, and takes some force to remove if from the housing. After removing the sector adjusting pin and spring, I used a punch to drive the shaft out from the bottom of the box. Note that the shaft assembly is two pieces, a ball with teeth cut into it, and a shaft with a socket in which the ball fits.

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After the sector shaft was removed I pulled the worm shaft and adjustor. Removing the pinch bolt allows the adjustor to be pulled out of the box. Again, it is a snug fit, and some force had to be used. The box was pushed off the adjustor by smacking it with a hammer and punch.

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The adjusting thrust ball bearing came out on the worm shaft (Note that this is the bearing the adjustor pushes on to take up the slack in the worm shaft [see second picture]). The opposing thrust ball bearing pressed in the housing was driven out with a socket. Also note that the bearing you see at the left in the steering box should have a 20mm freeze plug on the outside sealing the oil in.

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Next the seals were removed. The small seal was driven out of the adjustor with a socket and punch. The large sector shaft seal was removed with "the drywall screw trick." I have always found that to be the easiest way to remove larger seals. Just drill a couple small holes in the edge, screw in some coarse drywall screws, then pull the seal out by prying on the heads of the screws.

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With the box completely taken apart, it was time to give it a much needed bath

A 6” wire wheel on a grinder did a good job of taking off most of the surface rust from the ferrous parts. I was also able to do the majority of the cover with the wire wheal. I had to small use a wire bush to clean the insides of the box and wherever else the wire wheal couldn’t reach. A lot of work? Yeah, but I find it fun believe it or not. Anyways, yeah, once those parts were brushed up I shot them with brake cleaner to remove the oily residue and wash away any grit left on them.

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...and there you have it. That is how the worm and sector steering boxes come apart. To reassemble, just reverse the process. New seals should always be used.

Be sure to replace the seals! The fiber input shaft seal can be replaced with a standard 16x24x7mm oil seal. The freeze plug opposite the input shaft is a 20mm freeze plug that you can buy at any auto parts store. The lower oil seal for the large shaft worm and sector steering boxes can be replaced with a 28x40x7mm oil seal. A typical material for the seals is NBR as it doesn't deteriorate when in contact with oil. The double lip ADL type seal is ideal for replacing the input and sector shafts. Freeze plugs can be either brass or steel.

Although great for worm and roller steering boxes, I do not recommend using grease in the worm and sector type steering boxes. Fill the gearbox with an extreme pressure 80w90 Gear oil. EP gear oil is typically GL4 or GL5, so whatever you fill your manual transmission with.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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chevy steering box old school set up parts are cheap and strong
you will find these alot in old race cars
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Poor Mans Rack has been on my car for 3 seasons now with zero breakage.

Before this mod I was bending tie rod ends and the spindle steering arms on the drivers (short) side all the time. when landing after a jump I could see the left side wheel actually do a hard left as it bump steered. One time I actually scrubbed the tire off the rim.

Since the mod I have had to do nothing to the front end!

All I did was drill a hole and reinforce with small angle iron. If I do end up braking a tie rod I can just swap in the short one and drive off into the sunset.

Gary
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow great info here Smile
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