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SVX Vanagon Gearing
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JWPATE Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:47 pm    Post subject: SVX Vanagon Gearing Reply with quote

Having recently completed the conversion to Subaru EG33 power, I again must express my thanks to all those members willing to follow the progress and keep me out of too much trouble.

The engine is running just great now, and the van is a pleasure to drive. I have 450 or so miles on it now and is doing 17 to the gallon in normal around town runs. Just a little better than the WBX used to do. Next week I plan to go on the first road trip, of about 700 miles total.

The Evoscan software is now up and running, and has been helpful to confirm that O2, throttle position, load, ign. timing and so forth are where they should be.

The last test run was to check the coolant temperature as it warmed up and stabilized. But it also started me thinking about the best gearing to use. I have always planned to experiment with a spare transaxle. The process will be long and slow for me. Have never been inside a VW transaxle, but have been busy tooling up for the work.

The best way to start, I suppose, is to determine the current situation, and where I would like to change it.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Selecting only speed and RPM from the resent Evoscan data log provides a good starting point. At the high point in the speed graph, I was doing my best to hold 70 MPH. The graph speed number is in metric and converts to about 65. I consider that reasonably close, considering that the speed sensor is only the Small Car arrangement on a drive shaft. The 70 MPH speedometer reading was fairly accurate I think. Tires height is 25 inches. I was reading about 4000 RPM on the VW gauge, but here I would consider the graph reading to be more accurate, as it comes right off the cam shaft sensors.

Thanks to Rick Long for the following equation:

RPM x tire height
--------------------------------- = MPH
Gear ratio x R&P ratio x 336

The standard 091/1 transaxle, on my Westy is a four speed unit with 4.86 final drive ratio and 0.85 forth gear. Run those numbers with my 25 inch tires, and seventy MPH should equal an RPM reading of 3886. That is just about exactly what is recorded on the above graph, so I believe I have a good set of numbers for the starting point.

I know some members have used taller gears in third and forth, and I thought about that too. But first, I think I will try a final drive change to bring all the ratios up.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This ring and pinion set arrived last week from Germany. There are seven teeth on the pinion and 29 on the ring gear. So a ratio of 4.1429, and we will call it a four-fourteen final drive.

Run the numbers using this ratio, and seventy MPH should require only 3310 RPM. That is a drop of 14.8%, and may just be about right for me. Time will tell, and I certainly would welcome opinions of others.

This pinion shaft was only available in the longer length needed for the 094 five speed transaxle. I do believe though, that it can simply be cut off, say 2mm or so, beyond that last snap-ring groove and used in the four speed. Anyone know for sure about this? Before I ruin it!

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


63.3 is etched into the end of the pinion, and I believe that would represent the setting distance in mm, from this pinion face to the centerline of the differential. Or in VW speak, this set of gears has a positive .3 deviation.
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rubbachicken
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what size wheels and tires are you using, going bigger on your rear tires is a cheaper gearing

{unless you have a syncro, and in which casse you will need to change all four tires}
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Spinal Tap
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent! I was missing the SVX porn, but I'm happy it's been replaced with gearbox porn of the same high quality!

Cheers!
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r39o
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rubbachicken wrote:
what size wheels and tires are you using, going bigger on your rear tires is a cheaper gearing

JWPATE wrote:
Tires height is 25 inches.

Yep, with bigger engines usually come bigger brakes. Bigger brakes frequently mean larger rims. 25 inches is stock. Lots of room to move up in diameter.

17mpg is normal around town for an SVX. It "seems" almost no matter what size wheel you have the gas mileage never gets up much higher.

I drove around the shop Bluestar with SVX and it sort of got the same mileage.

Keep bench racing the ratios, I always have fun with that.
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j_dirge
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

r39o wrote:
25 inches is stock. Lots of room to move up in diameter.

To about 27.5 before you need to start making some mods here and there.

Geez, James.
I am not worthy!.. This will have my attention big time. We are doing my gearbox stock with 29.5s for SVX...and a Peloquin.

GO!
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danfromsyr wrote:
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have that ring and pinion in my TDI Vanagon with a .77 4th. Using my ratio software, here are the numbers I come up with using my 215/65/16 tire stock wbx gears and 4.14 ring and pinion. Looks close to what you are calculating. Figures are based on shifting at 4000 rpm.

Gearbox:- Vanagon Stock WBX transmission with 4.14 ring and pinion
Tyre:- Yokohama 215/65/16
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Top Gear gives 22.488 MPH/1000 RPM and a top speed of 89.950 MPH at 4000 RPM

Engine speeds in top gear:-
30 MPH = 1334 RPM 40 MPH = 1779 RPM 50 MPH = 2223 RPM 60 MPH = 2668 RPM
70 MPH = 3113 RPM 80 MPH = 3558 RPM 90 MPH = 4002 RPM 100 MPH = 4447 RPM

Top Speed in 1 gear = 20.227 MPH
And changes into 2 gear at 2180 RPM dropping 1820 RPM
Top Speed in 2 gear = 37.115 MPH
And changes into 3 gear at 2388 RPM dropping 1612 RPM
Top Speed in 3 gear = 62.161 MPH
And changes into 4 gear at 2764 RPM dropping 1236 RPM
Top Speed in 4 gear = 89.950 MPH
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have only run my SVX conversions with stock 4.86 Syncro R&Ps and different 15" & 16" wheels and tires.
I switch out rims and tires for my differing needs.

James, you are one of my idols Exclamation
Rock on brother.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup, I had thought of larger wheels. I like the ones I have though, the ride is so nice and the speedo reads like it should. That's why I am having a look at the transaxle changes first. Switching to 27 inch tire height, would result in roughly 3600 RPM at 70 MPH, or a reduction of 8 %. This ring and pinion will drop it 15%. Don't really know which is more suitable, but will stick with learning a little about the VW transaxle.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This transaxle was listed in the Samba Classified about a year back as free to anyone who needed a core. I took it. The young man in California explained that "it was still going, but second was out and reverse was difficult to engage". He never took a look inside, just replaced it with a used transaxle, and wanted this one out of his garage.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I did finally locate a used VW tool pair for holding the transaxle in a stand.
By the time I found them though, I had already given up and built one of my own, along the same lines.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So I will use my own version for this exercise. The VW holder is made for earlier transmissions and must be modified to fit this 091/9, while my tool was made up especially to fit this specific transaxle.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The approach I shall use is generally to follow the excellent directions in the Bentley Manual, and in that order. These little soft plastic end caps are easily removed with an awl or punch. This particular pair had also been sealed around the edges with silicone.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The drive flange is held in with a circlip and a spring washer. After those are taken off, there is a special VW tool to pull the flange off its splines. I actually do have the tool, but this is much faster provided the flange is willing. Both of these were.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This time, I think I will just go slow and clean things as they come off. These all look good enough to use again, with the exception of that one circlip on the left. It has been substituted for the VW clip in the center. Works OK, but is difficult to get out so I will replace it with the real deal.

I know it is possible to replace these hub flanges with the stronger LOBRO hubs, joints, and axle shafts. The main advantage in that exercise though in to gain greater flex angles, which I will never need. As for strength, these will probably never be the weakest link anyway.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Fit the VW tool in and loosen the side adjuster a half turn or so at this point, just to take the load off the case. I would first mark it if it were not in my plan to change everything anyway.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here we see reference marks made by those before us, probably done to take the adjusters out and fit new oil seals.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So with the 10 bolts removed, it is now time to take off the bell housing. A rubber mallet is all that is needed. Then we can inspect the ring and pinion.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


ARG! Take a look at that ring gear. I thought it was the Christmas Holidays..........this is more suitable for Halloween.

I think that is enough for today.
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hdenter
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw a ring like that. My friend got rear ended at stop light. He had just let out the cluch and didn't have his foot on the brake. The full force of the hit went through the trany and gears. A week later the trans locked up one morning. When I opened it up to use the bell and input shaft on my 5spd, that was what it looked like. Ouch!! The wall of the bell was so badly gouged by the chunks that locked it up that I couldn't use it.

Good Luck! I have alway thought that the SVX fuel economy proplems could be addressed by getting the RPMs low enough at freeway speeds. IMHO the engine has enough low end torque to hold 65-70mph at 2200rpm

Hans
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hdenter
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just ran that 4.14 ring through my calculator for my ASS 5spd tranny. It would give me 4 gears almost identical to the standard 4spd tranny and 5th would give me 65mph at 2750rpm on 215/65 16 tires.

The ASS is out of a '90's european TD van. Ratios are

4.11/first
2.13/second
1.48/third
1.02/fourth
.82/fith

Stock ring is 4.83

So... how much was the 4.14? Cool

Hans
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JWPATE wrote:

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.


"I don't always work on old cars, but when I do, I wear khakis and a sweater."
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hdenter
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He must be related to my father-in-law.. Laughing Laughing Just kidding!
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exciting, James! I'm glad to see that ring and pinion arrived so quickly. The 4.14 gearing should be perfect for the SVX engine.

David
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

D Clymer wrote:
Exciting, James! I'm glad to see that ring and pinion arrived so quickly. The 4.14 gearing should be perfect for the SVX engine.

David


For those not yet acquainted with David Clymer's work in adapting the Subaru transmissions to our Vanagons - I encourage you to check out his thread on the Samba. It is groundbreaking work, and were I not already fitted with a RJES bell housing, well.......... Just check it out!

And it was from David that I got the lead on the four fourteen. The best price I know of will be found at:
http://www.syncro-bernd-jaeger.de/ENGLISH/Ersatzteile/ersatzteile.html

Bernd, is not talkative - but he is completely honest, and also is able to respond in English ( should your German be rusty). You will have to pay with a bank wire. Don't worry, he is good for his word. The price he quotes will deliver the set to your door.
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hdenter
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

700=$950 Sad It'll be a while before I can float that. But wow, if I went SVX, that would be the way to go with my ASS.

Hans
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OH! The clothes to work in? What do you expect? A tux? Perhaps when caught by the camera it would be best to have a lab coat on!

For the record, even at my age, I do get it, and am only kidding.

This particular sweater has added to my own comfort for longer that the subject VW tranaxle has been in existence.


Last edited by JWPATE on Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:24 pm; edited 2 times in total
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buildyourown
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JWPATE wrote:
OH! The clothes to work in?


I really hope you got the jest of my comment. It's just that, well, I can barely be trusted to eat in pants of that color, let alone perform automotive work. I appreciate a clean workspace and try to instill it in my crew at work, but it rarely transfers to my home shop.
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thebaz67
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I look forward to seeing more of your awesome work! I was having trouble dealing with the fact of no more updates to your SVX conversion thread but this will do very nicely.

Baz
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wear what'cha want and keep up the good work Exclamation
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe a silly question.. But what is your cleaning procedure for the transmission case?

I would not mind working in my best whites, if the case was that clean.

Elbow grease? Simple green and a wire/stiff brush? or do you have a trade secret? Wink

I like clean parts...
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-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"

"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5

danfromsyr wrote:
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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