Help me figure out this overheating problem

[Malanthius]

Been in the VW scene for a long time. First bug 1984. Most of my vws have been stock or mostly stock. Just acquired a new to me 65 Vert. I do not have a lot of experience with a setup like this. 2276, Mahle pistons and cylinders. Total seal rings, DPR crank. Eagle 120 cam. Heads worked by brothers. Stage 2 porting? Scat 1.25 rockers, chromolly pushrods set at zero lash. 44 Spanish IDF webers. 60 idle, 155 main. 200 air correction f11 tubes. Carbs are synced and adjusted. CB distributor and coil. 30 degree advanced at rpm. A1 sidewinder exhaust. Full flow to a remote filter and cooler with fan and electric thermostat. Claude buggies deep sump. Scat oil pump (unsure which pump) missing front firewall tin. Engine seems to run great and has good power. Compression checked when warm showed cylinders 1 145, cylinders 2 140, cylinders 3 135, cylinders 4 140. From what I'm told there is 3200 miles on this build and motor. When I got it it did not have any guages. I've added vdo temp and pressure guages so far. Oil pressure when cold is 40psi at idle. 65-70 at rpms. When it was hot it was 20 psi at idle and about 45-50psi at rpms. Running valviline vr1 20-50

Heres my problem. Have only used it to go to a few meets in town. 20 min of city driving in 100 degree heat last weekend and I'm up to 180 degrees before I get 10 mins from my house. By the time I get to my meet I'm creeping over 220. I know that's not too hot yet but that seems awfully hot in a short amount of time. I'll going to try a freeway drive for 30 mins one way next day off I get to see what it does. For you guys that have experience with big motor builds, do I have reason for concern or does this seem normal? My bus with a 1915 dual 40s has never seen 220 up hill on the freeway during the summer. Are my expectations too high?

[sled]

I would never use 20/50 in a new engine, if built properly the oil clearances should be tight. I would drop to 10/30 VR1, thats what I use in all my engines.

that being said, with a remote cooler, its not like you're relying solely on the stock cooler and possibly bypassing it.

front firewall tin must be in place, if not the engine is just breathing hot expelled oil cooler air...assuming you have a doghouse oil cooler that is.

as far as how quickly its heating up, thats perfectly normal in 100 degree ambient heat!!! 220 is totally fine, try a long sustained highway drive and report back

Ive never owned a vert beetle, but I've seen people say they struggle to cool big engines as there is a huge lack of air getting to the engine..the stock decklid vents were designed to cool a 1200-1500cc engine that barely made 50 hp.


oh and those idle jets seem awfully large to me, its probably running rich
_________________
drive your split.

[Brian_e]

Where is your temp sender mounted? That has a big effect on what the gauge will read.

If the hot oil pressure is much over 40psi, it will bypass the oil cooler. Ditch the super thick 20-50, and switch to a good 10-40. I like Amsoil z-rod. Brad Penn also makes a good high zinc oil, as well as a few others.

Where is the cooler mounted? The cooler needs to have airflow across it. More than just a fan, and the hot air needs to have a way to escape. I have seen guys mounting them above the trans axle, with the fan pushing up. The cooler is just sitting their baking in its own heat.

220 is just fine. With good oil, 230 is getting warm, and 240 is getting hot. 245 is slow way down time.

Brian
_________________
www.type-emotorsports.com

[vwracerdave]

What is the compression ratio and what octane gas do you run.

Read what the oil companies say about their products. You can run 220*F oil temps for hours and hours and it will not hurt anything.

It only takes 3-4 miles of driving for oil temps to get up to full operating temps, so a 10 minute drive oil should be getting over 180*.

Two things about a convertible. The factory deck lid on your '65 Vert does not have enough louvers to support a much larger 2276cc engine. When you cruise a convertible with the top down the folded top blocks the air flow to the louvers and all convertibles run hotter. You need to use the tennis ball trick to raise the bottom of the decklid to get enough airflow to support the 2276.

20W-50 is probably too thick. Many people and engine builders get it wrong. I have a 2276 in my Ghia with just the factory dog house oil cooler and have no overheating issues in this 100* summer weather. I run 10W-30 Valvoline VR-1 racing oil.

I also agree the carb may be jetted too rich.
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK

[Malanthius]

Idle jets were 55 when I got it and had a lot of popping in my exhaust at cruise speeds and at idle. Changing them to 60s got rid of most of that. I still don't think I have the jetting dialed in perfectly yet. I have some variation being shipped to me as we speak so that's something I'll be working on. I have yet to pull a plug since the change but will do that when I get a day off. As far as the oil, that's been a plan to find some 10-30. 20-50 was the only high zinc I could find locally. I'll have to order some.

[Malanthius]

Oh. Oil temp sender is at the oil pressure relief valve near pulley. I should add that this is running an Empi oil pressure boost kit. Wonder i should change that to a stock setup?

Interesting info on verts and cooling. That makes sense. It does not have a stand off. This was a show car and mostly trailer queen that was built 10 years ago. Wasn't driven much.

[Malanthius]

[74 Thing]

As stated above:
1. Switch to a lighter viscosity oil
2. You need more air in the engine compartment especially with the top down. Prop the engine decklid at the bottom using a cut tennis ball. Most likely you are not getting enough air into the engine compartment for both the carbs and the fan.
3. Consider putting back the tranny tin especially on the dog house cooler side. In my convertible I cut it off on the passenger side so more air can get in from there.
4. Where is your VDO sender mounted and have you verified the oil temperature with another gauge or thermometer down the dipstick tube? I know my VDO reads 20 degrees F high.
5. What rpms are you turning and is your fan belt loose?
6. Make sure your external oil cooler is mounted in an air flow area.
7. 220F is not hot if the ambient is 100-110F

[Malanthius]

[sled]

[Brian_e]

[Malanthius]

[Malanthius]

[Alstrup]

Hello.
A couple of things.
Your oil viscosity is not your problem, at least not your main problem.VR1 20w50 is full synthetic and flows reasonably well.
You do not state whether that external cooler is your ONLY cooler. If it is, i agree, the set up is not right.
The lack of front plate is an old trick used especially in older vehicles to get more air to the engine without cutting. If that oil cooler is the only cooler, and it sits basicly in front of the engine I agree, it is not the smartest solution.
You also do not mention whether there is a thermostat in the system. If there is, and it is one of those installed in the hose lines (2 in & 2 out) from Bugpack, Racimex and the likes. That is part of your problem. They never work as intended. A thermostatic controlled sandwich adapter it THE way to go. I prefer BAT, but Mocal has a couple of good options too.
(Correct) ignition timing also plays a role in how fast or slow the temperature rises as well as fuel mix. But most engines run rich so that is most likely not the issue here.
As for replaceing the dial a pressure thingy. I agree. Never liked those one bit, - and they leaked too. IF you have the stock cooler present I suggest you buy one of those HD pressure kits, but, only use the long plunger inconjunction with a stock spring at the rear relief. This raises the pressure to the cooler with 0,3-0,4 Bar and is very good in such cases.
Finally, ignition. While it is still almost a naughty word in some societies, an SVDA style ignition is absolutely on its place here. You want as little heat in the heads as possible. A programmable ignition can work wonders here. There are plenty of options from a "simple" 123 bluetooth to a Black box, Daytona, Nodiz, MJ and now also Debbie´s (which I know very little about)

A little for you to work with.
T
_________________
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993

[VWporscheGT3]

[Malanthius]

[Brian_e]

[oprn]

Post a picture of your engine please so we can see if there is other things missing.

I agrees on driving these cars. That is what they are for.

Or donate it to a museum if having it on the road bothers you...
_________________
We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age)

[1LoWezl]

Location of the cooler is prob a huge factor. I run stock doghouse plus the setrab off the torsion housing on my vert and ragtop. Lots of air flow above and below the cooler/fan.

2276 and 2332 running vr1 10-30, 180 thermostat inline to cooler and the tennis ball trick on the vert forsure! Makes a huge difference. Both these motors run 200-215 all day long. These guys responding have helped many enthusiast daily, including myself.
_________________
1963 ragtop
1962 convertible

[dubman67]