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RatCamper
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2008
Posts: 3305
Location: Australia
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 Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| Amskeptic wrote: |
[The bug transaxle worked OK in the splitties because the final wheel torque loads were being generated by the reduction boxes.
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umm you mean they work ok because guys have ditched the RGB's in favor for the swap.
i will never understand what everyone gets a sandy vagina every time this topic comes up. if whoever does do the swap blows the pinion thru the pop top, then we will know it was a bad idea.
in the meantime, it appears NO ONE HAS EVEN DONE IT YET TO GIVE FEEDBACK and if they have, they aren't posting the results here
to the o/p: get a AWP 1.8T and a 5 speed from a 2wd passat or A4, flip the ring and pinion and point the nose of your bus to the moon when you dump the clutch. slam it to the dirt and take on ramps at 50 
i did warn you, didn't i?  |
Please, do continue.
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Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based pop-top camper (LCA / Sunliner). Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002. |
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Saint76
Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2004
Posts: 718
Location: Western United States
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| I keep telling myself I can read English, why the hell is this thread so hard to follow??? |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16879
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| RatCamper wrote: |
| i did warn you, didn't i? |
Please, do continue.[/quote]
i had a chat with the o/p of the thread thats all
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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my65vert
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2003
Posts: 6186
Location: Middleburg, Florida
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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bring me the bus, the trans and some cash and I'll get it in there for you.
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OGJHC
Kombisutra;
I'm starting to get little wafts of bus stink coming from the north. Something about the unique scent of drivers seat padding when it's glued together with mouse piss and shit that really gets me going... and I'm smelling it! Oh yeah! Time to start loading up the equipment. |
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bigbore
Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2003
Posts: 3297
Location: Wasilla Alaska
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| cdennisg wrote: |
| bigbore wrote: |
| As far as the gears first to forth that are the same gears part for part for most of the year just some ratio change in some years but the same beef the R/P are way heavier but its because they are of a lower ratio the housing is beefier to keep the R/P in line now the later the trany the bigger the bearing get in the bus tranys but the bug bearing hold up ok |
I need a translator. Not to rag on you Big Bore, but this is nearly impossible to understand. |
sorry I speak in tongues when I dance around a campfire swing a dead cat.  the gears in the bug tranys and the bus trany will interchange (till the 091 boxs) because they are made the same just different ratios same strength the ring and pinion are bigger in a bus because of the lower ratio and to keep up the strength of the pinion. when you get those real low R/P for bug tranys the pinion is tiny and can snap off thats why off roaders go to bus tranys. there is much that can be done to beef them up for horse power its just money. when I had some in me race bug I went to a 901 then a 915 box but the old bug box did well for me. I hope this translation helped.
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20275
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| bigbore wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
| bigbore wrote: |
| As far as the gears first to forth that are the same gears part for part for most of the year just some ratio change in some years but the same beef the R/P are way heavier but its because they are of a lower ratio the housing is beefier to keep the R/P in line now the later the trany the bigger the bearing get in the bus tranys but the bug bearing hold up ok |
I need a translator. Not to rag on you Big Bore, but this is nearly impossible to understand. |
sorry I speak in tongues when I dance around a campfire swing a dead cat. the gears in the bug tranys and the bus trany will interchange (till the 091 boxs) because they are made the same just different ratios same strength the ring and pinion are bigger in a bus because of the lower ratio and to keep up the strength of the pinion. when you get those real low R/P for bug tranys the pinion is tiny and can snap off thats why off roaders go to bus tranys. there is much that can be done to beef them up for horse power its just money. when I had some in me race bug I went to a 901 then a 915 box but the old bug box did well for me. I hope this translation helped. |
Thanks, that's much better. 
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a1steaksauce
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2010
Posts: 612
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| RatCamper wrote: |
Now that's interesting. I just want to point out too that putting 200HP through a type 1 transmission in a type 1 is different from putting it through the same transmission in a type 2. HP is one thing but the mass it has to move around, and more noticeably the mass which will be applying momentary loads back and forth on the transmission when speed and RPMs of the axles don't want to match, like going up and down hills, or even going over bumps causing jarring. It doesn't help. But hey I won't stop anyone from doing anything. At least at worst all they are doing is blowing some $ and a bug transmission. It's nothing horribly irreversible like making a chop top shorty samba.
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how is putting 200hp thru a beetle trans in a beetle any different than putting 70hp thru the same trans in a bus? you don't think a beetle with a high hp motor puts any stresses on a transmission? i'm not trying to launch my bay at 3,000rpm with a set of wide ass slicks out back
you can build a beetle trans to work in a bus. hell the kcw guys put stock beetle transmissions in their baywindow busses without issue.
i don't know about anyone else on here but i'm not planning on drag racing my bus with the beetle trans nor to i plan on beating the piss out of the setup in an attempt to break it.
a super diff, welded 3rd and 4th, and a couple of other upgrades will easily handle the weight of my baywindow westy and the hp output of a mild 1776....all for far less than the cost of a built bay trans with taller gearing.
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
i will never understand what everyone gets a sandy vagina every time this topic comes up. if whoever does do the swap blows the pinion thru the pop top, then we will know it was a bad idea.
in the meantime, it appears NO ONE HAS EVEN DONE IT YET TO GIVE FEEDBACK and if they have, they aren't posting the results here
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yeah no kidding....gene berg could have really used guys like these back in the day
and actually there is someone who's done this and posted...GeoffP talked about it in the thread i linked (my first post in this thread)...and he was using stock type I boxes without issues.
Last edited by a1steaksauce on Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20275
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| a1steaksauce wrote: |
a super diff, welded 3rd and 4th, and a couple of other upgrades will easily handle the weight of my baywindow westy and the hp output of a mild 1776....all for far less than the cost of a built bay trans with taller gearing. |
The question I have is this, would an otherwise stock bay trans (with a slight gearing change) cost the same, more, or less than that beefed up type 1 trans? It's an honest question since I really have no idea.
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a1steaksauce
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2010
Posts: 612
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| cdennisg wrote: |
The question I have is this, would an otherwise stock bay trans (with a slight gearing change) cost the same, more, or less than that beefed up type 1 trans? It's an honest question since I really have no idea. |
well for me it would be much more. my bay didn't come with a transmission.
not to mention the state i live in people drive like idiots on the freeway so if i'm not doing better than 70mph i'm getting run over.
i have access to quite a few beetle irs transmissions from which i can easily build and upgrade them myself....so i cannot speak for others in the cost comparison. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16879
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| cdennisg wrote: |
| a1steaksauce wrote: |
a super diff, welded 3rd and 4th, and a couple of other upgrades will easily handle the weight of my baywindow westy and the hp output of a mild 1776....all for far less than the cost of a built bay trans with taller gearing. |
The question I have is this, would an otherwise stock bay trans (with a slight gearing change) cost the same, more, or less than that beefed up type 1 trans? It's an honest question since I really have no idea. |
good question. i suppose if you were having a bus box rebuilt, you could talik with the builder to taylor your gear set for desired rpm/speed. cost? like anything else, from 0 to infinity
the reason off road guys go with the holy grail bus box is just that, they are off road beating the everloving shit out of them. of course a bug trans would blow up, anything will givin enough abuse. is the bus trans a bit more rugged? sure, but a bug trans in a bus is no different than having a bus box re-worked in the gearing department.
now, someone will chime in about cooling fan speed and how the staunch german engineers intended it to be the way it left the factory and any modifications will void your warranty. 
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20275
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
| a1steaksauce wrote: |
a super diff, welded 3rd and 4th, and a couple of other upgrades will easily handle the weight of my baywindow westy and the hp output of a mild 1776....all for far less than the cost of a built bay trans with taller gearing. |
The question I have is this, would an otherwise stock bay trans (with a slight gearing change) cost the same, more, or less than that beefed up type 1 trans? It's an honest question since I really have no idea. |
good question. i suppose if you were having a bus box rebuilt, you could talik with the builder to taylor your gear set for desired rpm/speed. cost? like anything else, from 0 to infinity
the reason off road guys go with the holy grail bus box is just that, they are off road beating the everloving shit out of them. of course a bug trans would blow up, anything will givin enough abuse. is the bus trans a bit more rugged? sure, but a bug trans in a bus is no different than having a bus box re-worked in the gearing department.
now, someone will chime in about cooling fan speed and how the staunch german engineers intended it to be the way it left the factory and any modifications will void your warranty. |
Could an 002 bus box be built to give 3200-3600 RPM's between 60-70 MPH with a mild type 1 engine, for the same or less cost than a comparable beefed up beetle trans? (trying to avoid the wrath of the staunch German engineer followers)
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16879
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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im sure it could. but for what it's worth, both of my 71's turn about that at 70 anyway. that is a true, GPS'd 70. i would like to drop the rpms to about 3400 at 70. now its at about 3800
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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bigbore
Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2003
Posts: 3297
Location: Wasilla Alaska
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| cdennisg wrote: |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
| a1steaksauce wrote: |
a super diff, welded 3rd and 4th, and a couple of other upgrades will easily handle the weight of my baywindow westy and the hp output of a mild 1776....all for far less than the cost of a built bay trans with taller gearing. |
The question I have is this, would an otherwise stock bay trans (with a slight gearing change) cost the same, more, or less than that beefed up type 1 trans? It's an honest question since I really have no idea. |
good question. i suppose if you were having a bus box rebuilt, you could talik with the builder to taylor your gear set for desired rpm/speed. cost? like anything else, from 0 to infinity
the reason off road guys go with the holy grail bus box is just that, they are off road beating the everloving shit out of them. of course a bug trans would blow up, anything will givin enough abuse. is the bus trans a bit more rugged? sure, but a bug trans in a bus is no different than having a bus box re-worked in the gearing department.
now, someone will chime in about cooling fan speed and how the staunch german engineers intended it to be the way it left the factory and any modifications will void your warranty. |
Could an 002 bus box be built to give 3200-3600 RPM's between 60-70 MPH with a mild type 1 engine, for the same or less cost than a comparable beefed up beetle trans? (trying to avoid the wrath of the staunch German engineer followers) |
I think it could if you did it your self and some good scrounging. start with a 5 rib but it could suffer in the lower gears would have to do the math.
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20275
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| im sure it could. but for what it's worth, both of my 71's turn about that at 70 anyway. that is a true, GPS'd 70. i would like to drop the rpms to about 3400 at 70. now its at about 3800 |
My '70 sounds like it's screaming at 60 (GPS), but I have not installed a tach yet. Stock tire diameter, too.
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20275
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| bigbore wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
| a1steaksauce wrote: |
a super diff, welded 3rd and 4th, and a couple of other upgrades will easily handle the weight of my baywindow westy and the hp output of a mild 1776....all for far less than the cost of a built bay trans with taller gearing. |
The question I have is this, would an otherwise stock bay trans (with a slight gearing change) cost the same, more, or less than that beefed up type 1 trans? It's an honest question since I really have no idea. |
good question. i suppose if you were having a bus box rebuilt, you could talik with the builder to taylor your gear set for desired rpm/speed. cost? like anything else, from 0 to infinity
the reason off road guys go with the holy grail bus box is just that, they are off road beating the everloving shit out of them. of course a bug trans would blow up, anything will givin enough abuse. is the bus trans a bit more rugged? sure, but a bug trans in a bus is no different than having a bus box re-worked in the gearing department.
now, someone will chime in about cooling fan speed and how the staunch german engineers intended it to be the way it left the factory and any modifications will void your warranty. |
Could an 002 bus box be built to give 3200-3600 RPM's between 60-70 MPH with a mild type 1 engine, for the same or less cost than a comparable beefed up beetle trans? (trying to avoid the wrath of the staunch German engineer followers) |
I think it could if you did it your self and some good scrounging. start with a 5 rib but it could suffer in the lower gears would have to do the math. |
So, if that's the case, it is likely not worth the effort of building, adapting, and installing a type 1 trans, unless you have a specific purpose in mind that you need the type 1 trans (narrowed torsion housing).
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a1steaksauce
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2010
Posts: 612
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| cdennisg wrote: |
So, if that's the case, it is likely not worth the effort of building, adapting, and installing a type 1 trans, unless you have a specific purpose in mind that you need the type 1 trans (narrowed torsion housing). |
i did a quick search and found Strictly Foreign for comparing costs of transmissions:
bus freeway flyer tranny:
Econo~Freeway Flyer...With Taller .77 4th gear......$975.00 Exchange
Deluxe Freeway Flyer...With Taller 4:57 USA Ring & Pinion...$1,125.00 Exchange
Ultimate Freeway~Flyer...Taller 4:57 R&P,and Taller .77 4th gear...$1,350.00 Ex.
002 Bus Core +$350.00
beetle freeway flyer tranny:
FREEWAY~FLYER" W/New 3:88 R&P FOR LOWERED RPM'S ON THE FREEWAY'S
OUR SALE PRICE...$589.00 Exchange
SUPER~STREET" PREFORMANCE TRANNY...Includes same as above but with:
*Weddle Super~Diff w/4 spider gears
*Weddle Heavy Duty Aluminum Side Cover
*Welded 3rd & 4th Gears
*Steel Shift Forks
*Hardened Keys
OUR SALE PRICE...$745.00 Exchange!
Core Charge is +$250.00
so if i didn't even have a core and didn't want to build it myself a beefed up beetle trans with taller gears is far cheaper than a bus setup.
and you guys make it sound like you're building a complete race frame when it comes to putting this transmission in a bus...anyone with an angle grinder and a welder can fab up a front mount to install the beetle trans.
i'm after greater ground clearance that the beetle trans provides, cheaper access to increased freeway speeds, and better availability to replacement parts should i happen to need any.
i'll admit this isn't for everyone but it's a great viable option for some. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16879
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| cdennisg wrote: |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| im sure it could. but for what it's worth, both of my 71's turn about that at 70 anyway. that is a true, GPS'd 70. i would like to drop the rpms to about 3400 at 70. now its at about 3800 |
My '70 sounds like it's screaming at 60 (GPS), but I have not installed a tach yet. Stock tire diameter, too. |
funny you should say that. my 70 single cab was the same way. both of my 71's are ok at a true 70 mph. seeing max and crusing speed are 68, what 2 mph between friends  the minute i drove my 70, i could tell the gearing was different
i had tried to find the gearing info some time ago. the book goes by VIN, which is impossible for me seeing i have a stack of transmixers and never made note of the vin numbers.
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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bigbore
Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2003
Posts: 3297
Location: Wasilla Alaska
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:00 am Post subject: |
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I have heard of some special gearing(lower) for SC /DC stuff but can't confirm it.
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16879
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| bigbore wrote: |
| I have heard of some special gearing(lower) for SC /DC stuff but can't confirm it. |
same here. i have a bunch of factory books, and there are some M codes for LSD and gearing changes but i just can't confirm it either
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20275
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| a1steaksauce wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
So, if that's the case, it is likely not worth the effort of building, adapting, and installing a type 1 trans, unless you have a specific purpose in mind that you need the type 1 trans (narrowed torsion housing). |
i did a quick search and found Strictly Foreign for comparing costs of transmissions:
bus freeway flyer tranny:
Econo~Freeway Flyer...With Taller .77 4th gear......$975.00 Exchange
Deluxe Freeway Flyer...With Taller 4:57 USA Ring & Pinion...$1,125.00 Exchange
Ultimate Freeway~Flyer...Taller 4:57 R&P,and Taller .77 4th gear...$1,350.00 Ex.
002 Bus Core +$350.00
beetle freeway flyer tranny:
FREEWAY~FLYER" W/New 3:88 R&P FOR LOWERED RPM'S ON THE FREEWAY'S
OUR SALE PRICE...$589.00 Exchange
SUPER~STREET" PREFORMANCE TRANNY...Includes same as above but with:
*Weddle Super~Diff w/4 spider gears
*Weddle Heavy Duty Aluminum Side Cover
*Welded 3rd & 4th Gears
*Steel Shift Forks
*Hardened Keys
OUR SALE PRICE...$745.00 Exchange!
Core Charge is +$250.00
so if i didn't even have a core and didn't want to build it myself a beefed up beetle trans with taller gears is far cheaper than a bus setup.
and you guys make it sound like you're building a complete race frame when it comes to putting this transmission in a bus...anyone with an angle grinder and a welder can fab up a front mount to install the beetle trans.
i'm after greater ground clearance that the beetle trans provides, cheaper access to increased freeway speeds, and better availability to replacement parts should i happen to need any.
i'll admit this isn't for everyone but it's a great viable option for some. |
Thanks for the numbers, that makes things more clear.
I was not trying to talk you out of it, I just wanted to see some real world stuff to be able to make a comparison.
A friend of mine is planning to convert his early bay to swingaxle beetle, narrow the torsion housing, and install tranny horns to facilitate removal of the mustache bar for even better ground clearance. Should be interesting.
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