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SL12572 Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2011 Posts: 270 Location: Washington
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Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:46 pm Post subject: Application of sealant to WBX heads. An idea |
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There has been some discussion recently about head pitting primarily due to coolant getting under the sealant, which sits stagnant for a long period of time, which in turn, causes the pitting and corrosion.
The experienced (Ben, Chris, and Dylan) stressed the importance of the application of the sealant, making sure excess does not ooze internally causing areas that can allow coolant to get under and sit. That makes a lot of sense.
This got me thinking.....scary, I know....
Here's what I'm thinking for a step by step procedure:
1. Apply a small amount of sealant to the upper portion of the seal ONLY and the head.
2. Install the seal to the crankcase (no sealant on this side)
3. Install the head to the crankcase and torque the head bolts slightly to allow the sealant to evenly distribute.
4. Let sit overnight to cure.
5. Next day, remove the head, which now the seal should be adhered and positioned properly on the head.
6. On the inside surface of the seal/head, apply sealant around the corners between the head and seal (similar to caulking a bathtub).
7. Now apply sealant to the lower surface of the seal and reinstall the head and pushrod tubes normally.
With this idea, it would apply a good strong seal between the head and rubber seal, without allowing any areas for coolant to get under and sit.
Thought this might be a good way to seal things up properly. I'm open to constructive criticism!
Scott |
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Jeff's Old Volks Home Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2011 Posts: 819 Location: Chester Basin, Nova Scotia
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Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:38 am Post subject: |
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I've rebuilt lots of these engines, probably more than 100... You'll never have head pitting issues if you regularly change your coolant. Measure your coolants PH to see if you're creating an electrolysis situation. Also, measure voltage from the coolant to ground, acidic coolant essentially makes a battery and will corrode the alloys.
So install the sealant on both sides of the gasket, and faces of the head nuts, and pushrod tube seals...and sleep well about your job.
Jeff |
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insyncro Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 15086 Location: New York
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Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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Agreed
Flushing the cooling system on a regular exchange interval is the most important thing you can do for longivity of the gaskets, heads and all cooling system parts.
I have used all the readily available coolants, mixed with distilled water and do not have one that stands out as better or best.
I still have many containers of the NLA, VW coolant that came in the vans from the factory.
It goes into my 91 Syncro Westy every other summer.
This van has 188,000 miles on the original heads and original seal!
Not even as much as a weep in all those years and miles.
Keep them maintained and they will go a long way.
Related coolant info:
I have had the best success using DexCool, the orange coolant, with chemical sealants such as Bar's and Subaru coolant conditioner.
When an internal or external weep is present this combination will seal it up and give a few more miles before properly resealing the heads.
When a motor is torn down after using this combination you will see heavy buildup where weeps and leaks were present. It is some work to clean all the buildup out of the entire system, but it has never clogged any rad, heater core or other delicate system part. It will build up on the senders...possibly causing lower than normal readings on the dash gauge...I verify the actual temp with a IR gun reading the temp at the thermo switch located in the radiator.
I no longer try to resurface used VW heads and would not recommend doing so. AMCs are plentiful and with or without a valve swap run very well. I do change the valves and work the seats and mating surfaces as our very well known rebuilders do...but not absolutely necessary, especially on lower budget reseals.
The sealants I have used and recommend, other than the VW sealants included in the gasket kits:
The right stuff for the rubber head gaskets, intake runners
Loctite 518 for push rod tube seals, thermostat housing oring
Aviation gasket maker on internal crush ring
Each of these products can be used elsewhere on the engine and other connections throughout the van.
I have not had any issues with any of them in over 5 years and countless miles. |
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SL12572 Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2011 Posts: 270 Location: Washington
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Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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The coolant issue makes perfect sense, which my engine will receive normal coolant changes.
Why has the WBX receieve such a terrible name? 180k+ on an engine developed a long time ago seems pretty darn good to me. If a simple coolant change and sealant application fixes the problem, why do people have such a negative opinion towards them? |
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insyncro Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 15086 Location: New York
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Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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Because my van is very atypical for waterboxer performance.
Many....many waterboxers could be on there fifth reseal in the same period.
Reason...non existant maintenance intervals or poor sealing techniques.
This is what I have seen in the 25 waterboxers I have torn down. |
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SL12572 Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2011 Posts: 270 Location: Washington
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Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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It's too bad considering that the issues have been identified and a solution has been made that the WBX is still regarded by many as a bad engine.
The performance issue has been greatly resolved by the waterboxer guru's (tencent, rocky jennings, etc.)
Oh well, at least there are a few fans left out there. I'm one of them with my WBX that has over 200k on and doesn't leak and runs like a champ. It will be replaced in the near future with my turbo WBX.
With all that being said, I still do appreciate the conversions and the solutions/creativity that goes along with them.
Scott |
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IdahoDoug Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010 Posts: 10239 Location: N. Idaho
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Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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This is exactly what I did when I had my heads professionally rebuilt. I read this suggestion on Samba last year and in reviewing pictures of various removed heads it was clear the sealant routinely partly blocks a couple of cooling ports that are close to the seal even with experienced installers. So, I found this slightly on mine when I removed them for the second step and was able to trim the sealant back for full coolant circulation in the heads. I think it's a good idea, but the extra time it takes would be more than most would want to deal with. Fortunately for me, at the time the Syncro was in parts anyhow, so removing the heads a couple days later and then adding the sealant the pushrod tubes was no big deal. It's not time consuming, really as the heads are just firmly bolted on, but for a mechanic the sitting time for the first sealant application would tie up valuable shop space.
I think it was worth doing.
DougM _________________ 1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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SL12572 Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2011 Posts: 270 Location: Washington
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Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Doug,
I'm glad someone agrees with me!
Once I get to the point of reinstalling the heads, I plan to use this method.
Scott |
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stevey88 Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008 Posts: 1317 Location: Fremont, SF Bay Area
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Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:37 am Post subject: |
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I will be gluing/closing the case halves today or tomorrow. I will for sure to use this method when its time to install the heads. I am in no rush to finish the rebuilding. Thanks for the suggestion. _________________ Steve
87 Westfalia full camper 4 speed |
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IdahoDoug Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010 Posts: 10239 Location: N. Idaho
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Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:49 am Post subject: |
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You'll be glad you did. It is a major confidence booster because you'll pull them off and be able to closely inspect what you did - something not possible in conventional install. Plus you are getting the seal on the head precisely positioned and not simultaneously dealing with the pushrod tubes, the seal sliding around on wet slick sealant, the cylinder metal head gasket rings falling half out of position, etc. Just doing one thing and doing it right. Later when you are dealing with getting the head on you can then focus on ensuring the other bits are properly positioned, the lips of the seal are correctly around the edge of the case, etc. Very nice suggestion.
DougM _________________ 1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2013 Posts: 114 Location: INDEPENDENCE, MO 64057
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Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:50 pm Post subject: HEAD GASKET SEALANT |
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Hi SL12572 - Scott: What sealant material do you recommend on a WBX to seal the gasket to the head. I really like your work instructions -
I have a tube of victor reinz reinzosil - 70 ML by volume. The temp resistance up to 300 degree C - that is about 600 degrees F.
I have a tube of Rutland 76 RTV high heat sealer - good up to 600 degrees F.
I was told to use Permatex "the right stuff" good to about 225 degrees f????. - I think he said he did 2 and 1 leaked. He has got more experience than I on wbx.
I have been using permatex Avialtion cement on the case halfs and bolts as appropriate. over quite a few air cooled 40 hp, 1600 and like.
VW has some stuff that costs $95.00 per tube - I don't think so with their track record.
Okay, I will be ready to start putting the case back together - [email protected] My vanagon is an 84 with the wbx 1.9 |
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atomatom Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2012 Posts: 1867 Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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I just tried this - and I'm glad I did it, however, it didn't work! When I removed the head, the gasket stretched back and pulled the seal with it. The gasket gets rather deformed when you apply pressure to it - and yes, I had ensured the lips were snug to the case.
I used the Dirko-S that came with my kit. I wonder what sealant DougM used? I gave it 24 hours - perhaps not enough? I suspect that this might work if the sealant you use cures faster and harder. Something more akin to glue. Dirko-S seems more soft and pliable. I have a tube of "The Right Stuff" but haven't opened it yet.
I agree with Doug that it was great to see how much squeezed out the inside. I put a very thin amount on the seal and smoothed it out with my finger. It was also good to have a practice run because I learned that not cleaning the nuts/studs means you may not be able to torque the heads down (more here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7187768#7187768 ).
So, no regrets in doing it, but I don't think I'll do it on the final assembly.
It would be useful if people who have done this successfully would post the sealant they used and how long they left it.
I remain somewhat sceptical because the gasket really gets squished in there when you torque down - I can't see how that would not be detrimental to the sealant bond. _________________ 84 Vanagon Westy, 1.9L, California raised but defected to Canada. |
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morymob Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2007 Posts: 4683 Location: east-tn
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Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 4:17 am Post subject: |
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atomatom wrote: |
I just tried this - and I'm glad I did it, however, it didn't work! When I removed the head, the gasket stretched back and pulled the seal with it. The gasket gets rather deformed when you apply pressure to it - and yes, I had ensured the lips were snug to the case.
I used the Dirko-S that came with my kit. I wonder what sealant DougM used? I gave it 24 hours - perhaps not enough? I suspect that this might work if the sealant you use cures faster and harder. Something more akin to glue. Dirko-S seems more soft and pliable. I have a tube of "The Right Stuff" but haven't opened it yet.
I agree with Doug that it was great to see how much squeezed out the inside. I put a very thin amount on the seal and smoothed it out with my finger. It was also good to have a practice run because I learned that not cleaning the nuts/studs means you may not be able to torque the heads down (more here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7187768#7187768 ). Seems like the black, non hardening permatex is no longer available, used it 4 yrs , worked fine 4 wbxs too.
So, no regrets in doing it, but I don't think I'll do it on the final assembly.
It would be useful if people who have done this successfully would post the sealant they used and how long they left it.
I remain somewhat sceptical because the gasket really gets squished in there when you torque down - I can't see how that would not be detrimental to the sealant bond. |
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morymob Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2007 Posts: 4683 Location: east-tn
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Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 4:18 am Post subject: |
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atomatom wrote: |
I just tried this - and I'm glad I did it, however, it didn't work! When I removed the head, the gasket stretched back and pulled the seal with it. The gasket gets rather deformed when you apply pressure to it - and yes, I had ensured the lips were snug to the case.
I used the Dirko-S that came with my kit. I wonder what sealant DougM used? I gave it 24 hours - perhaps not enough? I suspect that this might work if the sealant you use cures faster and harder. Something more akin to glue. Dirko-S seems more soft and pliable. I have a tube of "The Right Stuff" but haven't opened it yet.
I agree with Doug that it was great to see how much squeezed out the inside. I put a very thin amount on the seal and smoothed it out with my finger. It was also good to have a practice run because I learned that not cleaning the nuts/studs means you may not be able to torque the heads down (more here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7187768#7187768 ). Seems like the black, non hardening permatex is no longer available, used it 4 yrs , worked fine 4 wbxs too.
So, no regrets in doing it, but I don't think I'll do it on the final assembly.
It would be useful if people who have done this successfully would post the sealant they used and how long they left it.
I remain somewhat sceptical because the gasket really gets squished in there when you torque down - I can't see how that would not be detrimental to the sealant bond. |
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