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Antron Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 289 Location: Greenville Mi
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Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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Not buying the explaination that it is OK or supposed to be that way. It looks like it just cut your wheel travel (up) quite a bit. Not the thing a syncro owner is typically looking for.
Bob
87 syncro westfakia |
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photogdave Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2004 Posts: 3039 Location: Vancouver Island, B.C.
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Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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Here is the exact explanation:
That it exactly how they are supposed to look. As the suspension is loaded, the upper coils are designed to come into contact and that is how the spring rate goes up. As you go over a bump and the coils relax, the spring rate decreases.
You will notice as you load the back of the van it will not squat out like before. But, unlike just putting a higher rate spring in, the ride quality will not suffer. _________________ 89 Syncro GL Westfalia 2.1 WBX/WBXaustSS
My Westy Movies:
photogdave On Vimeo
photogdave On YouTube
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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bosruten Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2011 Posts: 544
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Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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photogdave wrote: |
I've only driven about 60 km because I haven't put in the front springs and done the alignment. I wasn't worried until I saw some of the reactions in this thread! So far it seems to ride fine.
How do you like the OME shocks? |
They are stiff, I'm ok with it but if I had gobs of $$$, I'd try the Fox, mostly for the adjustability factor. _________________ '87 Syncro Weekender |
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presslab Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008 Posts: 1730 Location: Sonoma County
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Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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I don't really buy the idea that progressive springs are a good choice for most vehicles. Set up correctly, your shock's rebound damping is tuned to the spring rate. Well, your shock is not progressive, so it will never really be tuned correctly with a progressive spring.
In off-road use, progressive springs (usually just two springs mounted in series) are used to give more bottom-out resistance for hard hits. They are usually set to engage only the stiffer spring at 60-80% of travel.
http://pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/coilovers/Part_1/
The GoWesty springs are for all intents just straight rate springs under static load because the softer coils are in coil bind. When the wheel is unloaded, the softer spring comes into play; I could see this being a detriment for wheel traction, as if you drop a wheel into a hole the spring will soften up, depriving you of needed weight and traction. _________________ 1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti |
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levi Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2005 Posts: 5522 Location: Las Vegas
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Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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photogdave wrote: |
Here is the exact explanation:
That it exactly how they are supposed to look. As the suspension is loaded, the upper coils are designed to come into contact .... |
Not much sense there, (they're designed to come into contact), they're already IN contact.
Someone trying to cover one's ass. _________________ One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way
https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40 |
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WhiteH2O Samba Member
Joined: October 06, 2009 Posts: 129 Location: Gig Harbor, WA
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Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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I have had a few cars where the springs looked like that. I see nothing wrong with it, that is how they are designed. _________________ 1985 Wolfsburg Weekender- 2.5L Subie Power
2002 Subaru WRX Wagon
1998 Subaru Legacy EJ257 Swap, 410 AWHP (sold) |
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canasync Samba Member
Joined: June 28, 2010 Posts: 656 Location: BC
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Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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I have done alot of reading about springs and spring rates over the last year especially since I was looking into bringing in the Maas (trailmaster Germany) Suspension kits. Maas tried to do what Gowesty does and make an "all around" suspension for all vans but the fact of the matter is that there can be no such thing with the variety of Vanagon models out there. Thats why VW had many different springs ranging from 10-19mm wire thickness.
Trailmaster realized this fairly quickly, admitted fault and decided to sell their first kit as one suited to 7 seaters, doka's, and single cabs. They then started work on a HD (heavy duty) kit suited for Westfalias, and expedition vehicles. If you look at the pics attached you can see a comparison of different springs available in Germany.
The pic below shows the rears lists the manufacturers name at the top, then the Length, and lastly the wire thickness.
In the next pic for the fronts from top to bottom it shows the Manufacturer, number of coils, length, wire thickness, springrates, the second last line is regarding the weight required for the progressive coils to touch and the overload coils to take over, and the last line is the weight rating for the springs at each corner.
What I would like to know is what the wire diameter for the GW springs is and what the rated spring rates are. I have tried to get this info from them before but they make a big secret out of it. _________________ 1987 Syncro
3 knobs
PumpeDüse TDI (17mm Garret Turbo, bigger injectors, stage 4 malone tune, intercooled)
Cruise Control
Remote Start/locks
Custom Lift
Custom Bumpers with receivers
Coast Mountain Hightop - Comming Soon
1985 2wd Vanagon Pre-runner in the making
soon to be powered by 2.5L Subaru
Custom Lift
Last edited by canasync on Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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240Gordy Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2008 Posts: 2354 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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Photogdave's springs look exactly like the H&R lowering springs I have in my van. That is LOWERING springs. They are designed to ride like that and not fall out when the van gets light and or you get full droop. If the springs were simply shorter, they would fall out unless you run limiting straps.
Go to H&R's website for a very good explanation.
_________________ Tencentlife said,
"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
2010 GOLF TRENDLINE 2.5
1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR |
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madspaniard Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2008 Posts: 3795 Location: Alameda, CA
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Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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just released, GoWesty's zero-lift progressive springs for the 2WD crowd
http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=23573&category_id=253&category_parent_id=
Looking at the pics posted above of a 2WD Westy with the GoWesty 1.5" lift springs, it looks like there is no coil bind upon installation but the question is still there regarding their performance in heavy vehicles like a Westy. Now we just need a volunteer to purchase these zero-lift springs and give us some feedback I think the lower height might be an improvement if you want to avoid too much lean during cornering and maybe they are more stable and less bouncy during braking...and as GoWesty says, not recommended for heavy power plant conversions... _________________ 1991 Westy auto w/ Peloquin TBD
"The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad” - Salvador Dali |
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photogdave Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2004 Posts: 3039 Location: Vancouver Island, B.C.
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Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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So driving around on the roads and some heavily-potholed back alleys, with just the rear springs in, the ride seems fine. However, going over some speed bumps at a moderate parking lot speed in the Home Depot parking lot, the rear shocks topped out.
Both GW and VC said the travel of the factory shocks should be okay with these springs. They are the original shocks so they are definitely soft but that shouldn't affect the travel, right?
I was all set to order new factory shocks for the smoother ride than OME but now it's looking like my choices are:
1. Keep the springs, get OME shocks and suffer the stiffer ride
2. Return the springs and take the loss on the return shipping/installation costs and wait for the new Schwenk springs to be available
3. Keep the springs, keep my current shocks and don't go over speed bumps too fast!
My driving is typically logging roads with lots of potholes and washboard, and long highway journeys to get to said logging roads. Any advice? _________________ 89 Syncro GL Westfalia 2.1 WBX/WBXaustSS
My Westy Movies:
photogdave On Vimeo
photogdave On YouTube
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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presslab Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008 Posts: 1730 Location: Sonoma County
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Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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Driving on washboard roads is real hard on shocks; sounds like yours are shot. With your old shocks worn out it will allow the springs to rebound too quickly, and now that you have less downward travel it tops out harshly.
New factory shocks could be a solution.
How much downward travel do you get on the rear wheel, from laden to unladen? _________________ 1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti |
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Jedi Samba Member
Joined: October 23, 2007 Posts: 734 Location: Cool California
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Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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I do not have GoWesty's new springs but I have had a few pairs of their old ones made by H&R Germany. I am still running the old ones on my syncro Adventurewagen and love them I see they still have a few sets of old and I would choose to get those over the new based on the pics of coils touching _________________ 1961 Westfalia SO23 Mango Green/Seagull grey
1961 Westfalia SO34 T/BW
1961 Westfalia SO34 SWR
1964 Westfalia SO33 pearl white
1965 Westfalia SO42 Velvet green
1986 Syncro Wolfram grey with black int GL
1986 Syncro Doka
1987 Syncro Sevana beige Adventurewagen
1987 syncro Sevana beige GL
1973 Pumpkin orange Thing
2 1963 Rag top bug's
1965 Manx
1970 Single cab
1971 combi
1990 Vanagon GL
2007 Audi A4 3.2L quattro |
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Keith Tanner Samba Member
Joined: December 12, 2011 Posts: 72 Location: Grand Junction, Colorado
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Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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I do a lot of suspension work on race cars, and our company sells springs for Miatas that have a similar design to the GoWesty ones. In fact, I think we even use the same manufacturer although we had a similar design with our previous supplier. There's a set of close coils that go into bind at normal ride height.
It helps if you think of them as a helper spring on a coilover, because they perform the same purpose. At normal ride height, they don't do anything. When you do drop a wheel a long way into droop, they unload and let the spring stay loaded and in place. Without them, the spring would come loose under droop. Not really progressive, but effective. Yes, they do increase the potential for coil bind but if your suspension is set up right, that's not an issue.
No experience with the GW springs otherwise though. _________________ SlowCarFast.com |
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Saguache Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2009 Posts: 360 Location: Gunnison, CO
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Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:42 am Post subject: |
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Just ordered my 2WD lifted springs and Bilstein shocks from GoWesty. Going to replace a few of the bushings (anti-sway bar in particular) while I'm under there. _________________ Matt Thyer
http://zenoswagen.wordpress.com/ |
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dubbified Samba Member
Joined: March 03, 2010 Posts: 1406 Location: Redmond, WA
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Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:57 am Post subject: |
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I've got about 1000 miles on my 2wd GW springs.
I cant say I like them, or their answer when I said they seem very soft..
I told them I dont have anything, 0 interior, typically 1 full tank of gas, and me driving.
The issue, braking, or cornering, they seem to dip, lose height really badly..
they said it was cause there was nothing in the van..
Well, like it will get ANY better when weight is in the van.
BS.... I just dont want to remove them.. cause I hated installing the fronts. |
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Altoona Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2011 Posts: 502
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Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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dubbified wrote: |
I've got about 1000 miles on my 2wd GW springs.
I cant say I like them, or their answer when I said they seem very soft..
I told them I dont have anything, 0 interior, typically 1 full tank of gas, and me driving.
The issue, braking, or cornering, they seem to dip, lose height really badly..
they said it was cause there was nothing in the van..
Well, like it will get ANY better when weight is in the van.
BS.... I just dont want to remove them.. cause I hated installing the fronts. |
They are progressive springs, right? So as they compress, they will get stiffer, right? So as you load the vehicle down and the springs compress, they will be stiffer, which is what you want, right?
Theoretically, what they told you makes perfect sense. Real world testing would be in order to confirm, of course. |
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dubbified Samba Member
Joined: March 03, 2010 Posts: 1406 Location: Redmond, WA
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Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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I've had the van loaded with my buddies garbage doing a dump run.
I just didnt see any difference. The springs themselves are quality.
GW is a great vendor, always had good experience.
In no way is my posting to be taken negatively about GW, or their product.
This is my first van, and there are many options for products which affect handling on the van adversely from product to product. |
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j_dirge Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007 Posts: 4641 Location: Twain Harte, CA
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Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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dubbified wrote: |
I just didnt see any difference. The springs themselves are quality.
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It is difficult to diagnose impressions of handling and driving characteristics.
However several Samba members have had very positive results going to the bigger Addco sway bar up front.. helps with dive into corners and helps flattent the van in turns.
Others also use Koni shocks.. adjustable and can help fine tune the ride.
Lastly a rear sway bar can help over all leveling thru turns and on uneven roads.
These items *may* help produce a soft "off-the-top" ride and still allow for more firm handling.
But I can understand the frustration.. I have been trading some info with a friend who feels they are guniea pigs for these products.. You spend hundreds plus install only to find out they aren't what was hoped for.
There is almost no upfront info to work with and then you spend hundress more trying to tune.. shocks, sway bars, tires,..
It is a very time consuming and expensive process. Some of us enjoy the process, and don't mind the money so much.. Its just part of the game But others? Not so much. I can respect that. Gets to be an $$$$ PIA.
Too bad the vendors can't publish more data to help us make a decision.
Bummer for them is, that if it happens to many times, a customer goes elsewhere.. or gives up.. or worse, sells.
Are vendors listening? _________________ -89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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Steelhead Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2007 Posts: 1791 Location: Kentfield, CA
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Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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insyncro wrote: |
Saguache wrote: |
Are we talking about the 2WD or 4WD kits? I hadn't realized this was an issue with these springs and I've been planning to lift my 2WD van very shortly. Are there other non-progressive springs you recommend which will remain stiffer under load? |
Both 2wd and Syncro.
I am currently testing Syncro.org 2wd lift springs paired with Koni shocks.
Excellent fit and finish.
No alignment issues, 1.5" lift, firmer than stock feel and excellent for limiting body roll.
The van I mounted them on first was a 91 Carat.
They will be mounted on a 86 gl next to see if there is any difference to report. |
Dylan- Thanks for all your input on this issue. So you are saying the syncro.org 2wd are stiffer than the stock Carat springs? This is very interesting to me, as I really don't want to lose too much of the Carat's handling characteristics if I go up. Based on your report, it seems the syncro.org 2wd plus Koni is the way for me. My stock springs with tired KYBs are riding extra low (14.5"?), so I'm expecting a pretty dramatic lift (maybe least 3" from where I am now) with a more comfortable ride coming from the Konis. No more totally flat, porsche-like handling but a better solution for mixed driving. _________________ '77 Bay Window / '89 Caratsburg (aka. the Stormtrooper) |
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photogdave Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2004 Posts: 3039 Location: Vancouver Island, B.C.
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