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5 speed AAP transmision mated to a TDI ALH advise needed
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pedrokrusher
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:24 pm    Post subject: 5 speed AAP transmision mated to a TDI ALH advise needed Reply with quote

Hi volks, I'm looking for advise into installing a 5 speed AAP code manual transmision with a TDI ALH engine from a jetta 2001 with 82000km. I looked into the topics here on thesamba, but nothing towards this combo came up.

I have the engine tilted at 50 degrees with a custom pan, presently with an automatic. The reason for the swap is that I was supposed to have a 3.73 R&P in my automatic trans, but for some unfortunate reasons it did not happen. The fuel economy that I am looking for is just not there, and I cannot drive at 90 km/h to achieve a mere 10l/100km... I want 8.5 l/100km at 110km/h!!! Smile)))

I already bought 2 AAP 5 speed trans mount and shift linkage (one complete kit as a spare). There is someone that has a AAP with a waterboxer, and at 100km/h he is at 3100RPM with regular 14 inch wheels. I have 16 inch wheels w 215-65-16 tires that should help lowering the RPMs a bit too.

Is there any member that has done something like that? Is there anything in particular I should be aware before starting this? By the way I'm not doing this, my mechanic will and he already has a kenedy adapter plate and all the manual bits from his parts vans.

Thanks in advance!!

Pedro
1991 vanagopn westfalia conversion, TDI ALH automatic, Silverfox
1989 syncro passenger, Syncrofox (sold 2 weeks ago on thesamba)
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hdenter
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have not done what you are doing, but I have installed an ASS trans that was used in europe with the 1.6td. This trans is a 5 speed as well and came with a diesel bell housing. My only suggestion would be to look into a diesel bell housing instead of using an addapter plate. It would be a bolt on factory style installation (you would need the diesel input shaft as well) instead of aftermarket addapter plates etc. I have my 5speed in front of my 1.9wbx and I love it. It is very close to the AAP in gearing.

Hans
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pedrokrusher
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Hans, I was wondering about that too. The information I have is that its a cleaner look to have the diesel bellhousing like here:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1230681

But you are stuck with a smaller disc clutch. Is that sufficient?

The Kennedy adapter plate apparently ables you to use a bigger disc clutch... how much bigger i'm not sure. Another thing is that I need an adapter to use a stronger TDI starter with the Kennedy adapter plate...

Pedro
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jabba
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,
I've a DK gearbox with a diesel bellhousing matted to a 130hp pd tdi engine at 50°. i don't know the adapter plate you are spoken about, but like this i Still use my original starter (from vanagon diesel).
I also use a clutch from a tdi 1z (228mm) with a Disc from a wbx bus (same diameter). Wink like this no need for other parts.
Have a look at my thread if you want to see some pics.
I'm curious to see your custom oil pan. Very Happy
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svenakela
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AAP-box, diesel bell housing, original TD starter, 16" wheels and 130 hp TDI.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Don't forget that the gear box mounting bracket is different on diesel and gasser vans. I use the gasser bracket though and it's all fine except that the engine comes closer to the engine lid.

Just do it, it's like playing with Lego.
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jabba
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Sven,
Have you got a pd tdi or upgrade tdi? A thread?
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svenakela
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a 1Z mTDI with a LR300 pump.

Here you go:
http://switchamotor.blogspot.com

BTW, waiting for another pump and then I'll make a new conversion for a friend. Same setup but less turbo pressure... Smile
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bridgetroll13
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am running an AAP with an AAZ 1.9td in my '82 Westy using a stock diesel bellhousing. I was lucky enough to end up with the later style mounting bars for the engine when I bought the AAZ. They position the engine further back and the trans mount aligns with the other set of existing mounting holes which allow the nose of the transmission to be further forward. I know other folks have relocated the ears on the earlier mounting bars to achieve the same end.

Erik
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pedrokrusher
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jabba, I also speek french, since i went to french school here in Quebec. I saw your threat and you did an amazing job with your PD TDI !! Great job!! As for my oil pan, the mechanic did exactly what you did to yours. He kept about 6-8 inches of the base of the ALH TDI oil pan, and welded the bottom part of the vanagon diesel oil pan. I checked in my files for a picture of my oil pan and I don't have one... Whats up with that?? I am a bad TDI Vanagon owner... I went to take a picture of it and the camera's battery is dead. I'll take pictures of it tomorrow and post then.

Hi Svenakela, I don't speak swedish but do love your country. Nice picture you posted there, and thanks for the lego thingny, great that it is realy easy. Is this a general consensus to use the original diesel vanagon bell housing? Is there any advantages to use the adapter plate to use bigger disc clutches?


I've been lurking for a while here on thesamba, and I believe its time for me to share my findings with all you guys... So here it goes (be gentle, as this is my first topic here):

The engine bay. Notice the modified oil filter welded to face down, with a AHU oil filter set-up. The big black flexible air intake tube will be changed later to a set-up that goes towards the underneath, instead on top like now (and I believe a lot of noise comes from):
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The pump and the belt tensioner (not shown) are the highest point. The tensioner is planned to be shortened, and the engine lid will be modified to accomodate the pump when we'll raise the motor that is just too low to the ground. Is there any way we can tilt this pump like a AHU?:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is my intercooler set-up. The air comes from the top air vents and comes out tru the bottom, and is sealed from the engine compartments heat. This intercooler is from an Eagle Talon. Corroplast mini mud flap to protect the intercooler, and to also create some sort of vaccum while driving. No electric fan at the moment but planned to be added (don't feel the need for it yet, according to my thermometer laser gun.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Donalson air filter # G065433. Note that a little metal wall was removed to accomodate the filter. The blue tube will be changed later to...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I just fell on these nice perfect 90 degree plastic tubes days later after fighting with the blue flexible tube. They where found at Canadian Tire store and they are for the shop vac!!! 10$ each! Perfect fit diameter to the donaldson.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And my van, Silverfox.
- 16 wheels with 215-65-16 michelin Hydroedge tires.
- Smallcar big front brakes and rear discs. Such an improved handling compared to stock.
- 85 litre South African gas tank (Mmmm... 8.5 l/100km = 1000km per tank... Sweet!!).
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


My Syncro sold a couple weeks ago with my 2wd Silverfox, You can see the height difference. this was my avatar picture... gotta have to change it soon...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Pedro
1989 vanagon Karmann Gipsy #652, TDI AFN
1991 vanagon westfalia conversion TDI ALH Silverfox
ex-1989 vanagon syncro passenger Syncrofox (Sold)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=598791&highlight=
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=493964&highlight=speed+aap+trans
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=496589&highlight=carrier+bars
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=506025
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pedrokrusher
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice set-up, Erik!!! , I would love to see some pics from underneath, if possible. So what are your RPMs like with the AAP? Stock tires? Lets say at 100km/h?

Same for Svenakela (pictures), i checked your link but did not see your completed instalation. Mabe it is not ready?

Pedro
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Pedro
1989 vanagon Karmann Gipsy #652, TDI AFN
1991 vanagon westfalia conversion TDI ALH Silverfox
ex-1989 vanagon syncro passenger Syncrofox (Sold)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=598791&highlight=
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=493964&highlight=speed+aap+trans
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=496589&highlight=carrier+bars
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=506025
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svenakela
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pedrokrusher wrote:
Nice set-up, Erik!!! , I would love to see some pics from underneath, if possible. So what are your RPMs like with the AAP? Stock tires? Lets say at 100km/h?

Same for Svenakela (pictures), i checked your link but did not see your completed instalation. Mabe it is not ready?

Pedro


Not ready? It has been on the road since august. Smile

Link



@pedrokrusher, I use a solid center clutch disc but that's not needed, the standard disc is more than enough if you don't plan to go hard (Clutch net disc, super good grip). The only thing that hits the bellhousing are two metal ears sticking out half an inch from the clutch, either knock them in with a hammer or cut them off. It takes less than 3 seconds and then your TDI flywheel with standard clutch will fit right onto the gearbox with the diesel bellhousing.
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pedrokrusher
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Svenakela, nice video! I see you got some machinist skills (my dad is a retired machinist and I was always fascinated with his work). Your engine kinda sounds pretty much like mine, maybe a tad less noisy because I have the Donaldson air filter that acts as a muffler. Its hard to say just from a video that you can adjust the volume...

A big thanks for the tip regarding the littles metal ears to knock off easily from the clutch.

So what is your RPM at like 100km/h? And what kind of fuel consumption?

I looked on the web for your clutch net, is that what you used?
http://clutchnet.com/clutches/browse/4276-clutch-kit-package?sef=hc
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Pedro
1989 vanagon Karmann Gipsy #652, TDI AFN
1991 vanagon westfalia conversion TDI ALH Silverfox
ex-1989 vanagon syncro passenger Syncrofox (Sold)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=598791&highlight=
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=493964&highlight=speed+aap+trans
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=496589&highlight=carrier+bars
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=506025
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pedrokrusher
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jabba, so here is my custom oil pan. As stated before, it is the base of the ALH TDI oil pan welded with the bottom part of the vanagon diesel oil pan. I could not figure out why there was always some oil stains on the welded pan. I figure it out later that, with time, the oil will go tru the aluminum welds and create this leak. It is very slow, but annoying. I might consider to paint the interior of the pan, as suggested somewhere here on thesamba. i don't know what kind of paint to use.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Pedro
1989 vanagon Karmann Gipsy #652, TDI AFN
1991 vanagon westfalia conversion TDI ALH Silverfox
ex-1989 vanagon syncro passenger Syncrofox (Sold)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=598791&highlight=
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=493964&highlight=speed+aap+trans
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=496589&highlight=carrier+bars
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=506025
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svenakela
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have 16" wheels and about 2950 RPM @ 100 km/h.
Even though I have an AAP box I think the RPM is too high, that's why next project is to swap the transmission to a 012 like BUS.BOY once did. I have found out that the 012 box coded "EHV" will be perfect for me and one is waiting on the workshop floor. That box will give me 2450 @ 100 km/h. Smile

The Clutch Net link didn't work. I checked the package and I couldn't find the Clutch Net item number, only the reseller item SKU. But it is a 228 mm Cush lock disc with organic lining. The grip is fantastic but still driveable. If you search for KL13171 I think you'll find the same disc. But hey, just call them or send an e-mail.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


BTW, Thanks for the compliment, I run my own workshop business doing prototypes and composite productions so I hope I have at least a little bit of handicraft in me...

@pedrokrusher, Is your oil pan MIG welded? If that's the case I would suggest you to really clean that weld up and ask someone to reweld it with TIG.

.
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pedrokrusher
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Svenakela, I don't know the difference about TIG and MIG aluminum welding, I guess I need to TIG weld it now... Keep on learning!

What is this "transmission to a 012 like BUS.BOY" ? Is there a post on this subject? Is that the Renault transmission you guy in europe have? That would be amazing to lower the RPM to 2450RPM at 100km/h... Wow... Mmmm, doesn't the 4.14 ring and pinion do just that? I am planning to rebuilt next year my spare AAP with that 4.14 R&P and locker. Thats gonna be sweet!!!

Sorry about the clutch net link not working... I did try to post a picture from their website, but I get all frustrated trying for so long to resize the pictures for thesamba standards to post, re-read everything, correcting my english sentences to make sure the message reflex what I am trying to say... Then finaly post.

Hi Erik (bridgetroll13), Can you tell me what's the clutch /disc you use? Any pictures too? Your set-up is sweet!!

This post reached over 350 views!! Lots of people interested in this threat. It would be very informative to others if we could include some more info, like parts numbers, brands, where parts were bought, and of course pictures!! Smile))) I'll do my part when it will be completed, and what worked and what did not work.

Thanks a bunch everybody!
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Pedro
1989 vanagon Karmann Gipsy #652, TDI AFN
1991 vanagon westfalia conversion TDI ALH Silverfox
ex-1989 vanagon syncro passenger Syncrofox (Sold)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=598791&highlight=
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=493964&highlight=speed+aap+trans
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=496589&highlight=carrier+bars
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=506025
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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pedrokrusher wrote:
Hi Jabba, so here is my custom oil pan. As stated before, it is the base of the ALH TDI oil pan welded with the bottom part of the vanagon diesel oil pan. I could not figure out why there was always some oil stains on the welded pan. I figure it out later that, with time, the oil will go tru the aluminum welds and create this leak. It is very slow, but annoying. I might consider to paint the interior of the pan, as suggested somewhere here on thesamba. i don't know what kind of paint to use.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Try using some Glyptal
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bosruten
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pedrokrusher wrote:
Hi Jabba, so here is my custom oil pan. As stated before, it is the base of the ALH TDI oil pan welded with the bottom part of the vanagon diesel oil pan. I could not figure out why there was always some oil stains on the welded pan. I figure it out later that, with time, the oil will go tru the aluminum welds and create this leak. It is very slow, but annoying. I might consider to paint the interior of the pan, as suggested somewhere here on thesamba. i don't know what kind of paint to use.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Hi pedrokrusher, For next time, welders need to spend extra time prepping alum., remove the natural occurring oxides on the surface with a stainless brush, use a alcohol based cleaner after. Your pan most likely leaked from the get-go...just took awhile to get to the outside.
For lack of proper NDE equip/methods...Diesel gas/petrol works well to reveal flaws. Fill up the pan, have a beer and hope you did it right the first time, or you go through the prep. again Rolling Eyes. And a nice little AC square wave inverter with a pedal helps.

Your ride looks sweet!
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jabba
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bosruten is right you need a very good preparation on the 2 pans before weld them together. Aluminium is like a sponge and when you warm it too much, the holes become bigger. If there is oil when you weld, you can create a boiling. Also, you can't Begin the weld wherever because the metal reacts by twisting itself.
I've done the preparation on my oil pan but let do a professional welder for the weld. He used argon and weld inside and outside the pan and there is no leak.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Pedro, i have seen the original bracket for the exhaust on your pan. I trust my welder but to support my exhaust i didn't use this bracket.
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Last edited by jabba on Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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svenakela
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bus tranny is working well as long as you don't go overloaded with torque, BUS.BOY cracked the bellhousing and mine sometimes sounds worse than a drunken bear (ie it will fail anytime).
The 012 transmission comes from a various of VAG vehicles mid 90's and onwards. They are super rigid and can take a massive load. The Porsche Boxster trans has the same housing, so they really are durable. On top of that, I can buy four 012 boxes for the same price as the spare parts for the AAP.
But how to run a front wheel driven gearbox in a vanagon then? You flip it upside down. Smile
There are now a bunch of guys out there with 012 trannys, also kit car builders have found this box (it's way more common than the Renault UN1) and it has proved to keep up with the pounding.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=453729&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
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jabba
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

svenakela wrote:
I have 16" wheels and about 2950 RPM @ 100 km/h.
Even though I have an AAP box I think the RPM is too high, that's why next project is to swap the transmission to a 012 like BUS.BOY once did. I have found out that the 012 box coded "EHV" will be perfect for me and one is waiting on the workshop floor. That box will give me 2450 @ 100 km/h. Smile

Hi Sven,
2450rpm @ 100 km/h give approx 41km/h for 1000 rpm.
With my custom DK gearbox i have 38 km/h for 1000 rpm.
For me the ideal gearbox Will give approx 45km/h for 1000 rpm. Do you know the code of an Audi gearbox who give this ratio?
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