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Audi 5000 Mount Detail, Bracket Strength Questions. PICS
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:40 pm    Post subject: Audi 5000 Mount Detail, Bracket Strength Questions. PICS Reply with quote

Hi all.

Edit: moved around paragraphs, added detail

Hope these mock ups make sense.

Plan: Move carrier to pulley end of I4, cantilever mount brackets on arms out to ~ mid engine. Anyone care to guess if these brackets will properly support the drivetrain weight?

New mount bracket arms: 1/8" 1" x 2" cold rolled cantilevered 9" (total 11" long, arms shown not total length) from front face (LH) of carrier. Full length welds at all points. Plate: .188" hot rolled same width as mount body. Mount supported at ears, won't touch plate.

Carrier arms: 1/8" 2" x 2" on plates (below) 3 bolts per arm to frame. I think added stress due to length of new cantilevered mount brackets won't twist arms or bend frame, but opinions are welcome.

Mounts poss. NOS. Does rubber look like it will crack soon?

ETKA shows other parts involved with mounts. Are these required? Parts in question: 21, 22, 22A below. I think engine bracket can just sit on top of mount without 22/22A spacers, but what about 21? Some kind of heat shield?

Thanks a bunch,

Neil.

Looking down, driver-side. Front of van to LH.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Driver side, looking to rear.

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50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Neil,

Those mounts look fine. I have a new one of those in my back room that I was going to use on an Audi Coupe GT I used to have, and the rubber has a very similar appearance.

I agree with you that all those spacers shown on the ETKA are not necessary. You can just place your brackets directly over the mounting pedestal with the stud sticking up. There's no functional difference. At least now you know those spacers exist if you have to adjust the height of your engine for any reason.

It looks like your mounting flanges can be pretty simple. The mounts are meant to be bolted up from the bottom. Are you planning on remaking your crossbar, or just adding the mounts to this one?

David
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neil, I know the Audi mounts are used by only supporting them by the mounting ears in vanagons, but notice in the drawing you posted, the mount is supported all the way around in the subframe. Just something to consider. I fabricated cups for my Saab mounts for the same reason.

The Saab mount had a protrusion around the center stud that required a spacer. I made spacers out of a stick of delron that I had laying around and they have held up fine. It looks like the stud on the audi mount is flush, and the threads are most of the way down, so you should be good to go. mark
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentlemen; thanks VERY much for the replies. Thought maybe my Fred Flinstone mock up might have made people laugh so hard, they couldn't type a reply. Wink

(and @ Mr. Clymer. Thanks for replying in spite of my goofy "joke" in your Suby Transmission thread. Wink )

Keeping old arms or building new, I will re-position 1/8" x 1" x 2" cross piece, on the flat. (edit: "ON END" sheesh. Smile ) I don't have PS or AC, so it seems there's room. It may even work out that I can access all the oil pan bolts. But. I doubt I'd get the pan off w/o removing carrier or raising engine up. I may also add a piece of plate @ ~ 90˚ to new cross piece. Building new arms not much more work. Doing that would leave the current carrier in place longer (I hope to get to BBTB in AZ) until I was ready to attach the cantilevered mount brackets to new carrier. Time wise, the exhaust re-fabrication hinges on new carrier position so.....

I figured I wouldn't need the spacers, but VERY helpful to get confirmation from more knowledgable sources. Thanks.

My parts guy would likely exchange the "cracked" rubber mount. Still. Good to know it's ok. I'm just really suspect of rubber quality in so called "OEM" parts these days....

Mark: absolutely. Noticed in Audi ETKA, mount is supported 1/2 way on one side, all the way on other. Maybe done to save $ in vehicle production costs, or installing mounts on spacers (ears only) would raise engine and not fit body design? < shrugs > Though splitting hairs, maybe mounting by ears only reduces vibrations transmitted to frame? That said, mounted via on ears only looks frail to my eye. We'll see. If issues arise as I could weld on a cup but obviously keep mount height the same. Thanks for suggestion.

Neil.
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1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you look in VW ETKA at the 2003 'Vanagon' built in South Africa they used those same hydraulic mounts for the 2.6 5 cyl engine, supported by only the 2 ears. My old 5 cyl Syncro conversion was done the same way. Those 5 cyl engines are heavy!

Mark


Vanagon Nut wrote:
....Noticed in Audi ETKA, mount is supported 1/2 way on one side, all the way on other. Maybe done to save $ in vehicle production costs, or installing mounts on spacers (ears only) would raise engine and not fit body design? < shrugs > Though splitting hairs, maybe mounting by ears only reduces vibrations transmitted to frame? That said, mounted via on ears only looks frail to my eye. We'll see. If issues arise as I could weld on a cup but obviously keep mount height the same. Thanks for suggestion...Neil.
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neil, I always enjoy watching your work. It is possible the only reason they are partially supported in the subframe is so the robot can bolt the mount to the subframe. Otherwise the robot might drop it and would need to be programed to find it and pick it back up. The ears seem plenty stout and I have seen pictures of vanagons running with the Audi mounts supported only on the ears. mark
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:
If you look in VW ETKA at the 2003 'Vanagon' built in South Africa they used those same hydraulic mounts for the 2.6 5 cyl engine, supported by only the 2 ears. My old 5 cyl Syncro conversion was done the same way. Those 5 cyl engines are heavy!

Mark


Vanagon Nut wrote:
....Noticed in Audi ETKA, mount is supported 1/2 way on one side, all the way on other.


Good to know Mark. Thanks.

Just checked vagcat for image to post for others to see, but don't see listing for '03 SA Vanagon.

And for sure. I bet material "added" for 5th cylinder adds significant weight. Almost as much as I'm adding to my new carrier. Heh heh.


Neil.
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1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

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Last edited by Vanagon Nut on Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neil, are you going to stand them up or will they be on the existing incline? Can't wait to see the pictures.
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rsxsr wrote:
Neil, are you going to stand them up or will they be on the existing incline? Can't wait to see the pictures.


I will stand up mounts so they're @ 180˚ to horizon. (or somewhere close to that Wink )

One major concern is that drivetrain weight + length/design of new cantilevered mount brackets will add too much stress to carrier arms at plate/frame causing issues, and/or cause new bracket to bend, or ? (I kind of doubt the latter will be an issue as it appears new brackets will be over built)

And thanks re: previous comments. Am happy to post pics. This is a fun hobby.... when it works out. Smile
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1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neil, here is a picture of my custom trailer hitch. I extended the factory bumper bracket to accept a 3 rd bolt. I then sandwiched the sheetmetal between a peice of flat stock I bent up and the hitch I fabricated. Maybe you could do something similar if you are concerned. It is a little hard to see the upper bracket. Basically it is a peice of flat stock bent to 90 degrees. mark

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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rsxsr wrote:
Neil, here is a picture of my custom trailer hitch. I extended the factory bumper bracket to accept a 3 rd bolt. I then sandwiched the sheetmetal between a peice of flat stock I bent up and the hitch I fabricated. Maybe you could do something similar if you are concerned. It is a little hard to see the upper bracket. Basically it is a peice of flat stock bent to 90 degrees. mark

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Thanks Mark. Seems the carrier arms I built are similar. (though plate could be longer?)

Neil.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neil, you missed the point. I am sandwiching the factory lip between two 3/16 th plates. The upper plate is held in place with two longer bumper bracket bolts and a 3rd bolt further forward that I added by lengthing the factory bumper bracket. I copied the German trailer hitch for the idea. Does that make a little more sense?
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rsxsr wrote:
Neil, you missed the point. I am sandwiching the factory lip between two 3/16 th plates. The upper plate is held in place with two longer bumper bracket bolts and a 3rd bolt further forward that I added by lengthing the factory bumper bracket. I copied the German trailer hitch for the idea. Does that make a little more sense?


Yes. Thanks. And adjusting contrast/exposure of image helped too. I see what you mean.

Neat. Not only is the carrier mounted to a stronger point, but it seems the frame lip only adds to strength and rigidness.


Neil.
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1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neil, I could probably take a better picture for you. I don't have a picture of the modified bumper bracket. But basically, I added a peice of 3/16ths flat stock to lengthen the bumper bracket and placed the bumper back on the van. From the factory, the unibody, has a hole ahead of where the stock bumper bracket bolts are located. I marked my extended bracket through the hole, removed the bumper again, drilled the hole in my extension and then welded a nut to the extension. I had noticed in a picture that the European vanagon trailer hitch used 3 bolts instead of two.

So, this really backs up the entire corner. I was going for overkill on the trailer hitch and wanted it to also to be a clean looking install. From behind, all you see is the receiver. It came out so nice, I had it powder coated. I also ran some brackets up to the rear diesel carrier mounting in the valance. It really tightens up the entire rear of the unibody and I ended up incorporating my torque mount into the hitch as well. mark
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rsxsr wrote:
Neil, I could probably take a better picture for you. I don't have a picture of the modified bumper bracket. But basically, I added a peice of 3/16ths flat stock to lengthen the bumper bracket and placed the bumper back on the van. From the factory, the unibody, has a hole ahead of where the stock bumper bracket bolts are located. I marked my extended bracket through the hole, removed the bumper again, drilled the hole in my extension and then welded a nut to the extension. I had noticed in a picture that the European vanagon trailer hitch used 3 bolts instead of two.

So, this really backs up the entire corner. I was going for overkill on the trailer hitch and wanted it to also to be a clean looking install. From behind, all you see is the receiver. It came out so nice, I had it powder coated. I also ran some brackets up to the rear diesel carrier mounting in the valance. It really tightens up the entire rear of the unibody and I ended up incorporating my torque mount into the hitch as well. mark


Thanks for explaining further Mark.

I may not need to do what you did (no trailer hitch), but your solution is obviously much stronger and a great idea. Incorporating frame lip with all concerned is really neat.

Though not complex at some level, re-designing this carrier is proving a little tricker than planned. Over built may be warranted given my lack of general physics knowledge etc. More welding (and repairing snapped rusty bumper bracket bolts Wink ) may be worth it.

Powder coating would be nice. Tremclad "worked" but toad chips took their toll in short order.

Neil.
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1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gee, thanks Neil
I thought I was done with all this conversion swag. Ya know, build a 2.2 wasser for the auto and mope on down the road. Then this talk of 5 bangers. 5 banger,adapter plate, automatic with a home fab mount bar. So I checked my old 86 Quantum engine under the tarp, still turns and CIS injection to boot. I'm thinking an engine cradle like a 944 suspended from the frame.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neil, I may have said this before, I tend to over engineer everything too. It is problematic with the race car, because of weight. With the vanagon, while weight is a consideration, it is not as critcial. I have no formal fabrication training. I am self taught. Truth is, from time to time, I come across engineers that have less ability to think through a problem. They might know the tensil strength of a bolt or be able to calculate the sheer loads, but give them a wrench and they get a blank look let alone handing them a welder.

I can tell you, I have often wasted time trying to preserve something by modifying it rather than starting from scratch. Often my projects are in phases. Usually phase 1 and 2 end up being discarded. Maybe you can support the engine from above and design an entire new cradle. You probably have some ideas of things you might have done differently anyhow. Good luck with the build. mark
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Pike wrote:
Gee, thanks Neil
I thought I was done with all this conversion swag. Ya know, build a 2.2 wasser for the auto and mope on down the road. Then this talk of 5 bangers. 5 banger,adapter plate, automatic with a home fab mount bar. So I checked my old 86 Quantum engine under the tarp, still turns and CIS injection to boot. I'm thinking an engine cradle like a 944 suspended from the frame.


You're welcome.

You know the song.... ".... but you can never leave"

You're doomed. You will have to build another VAG inline. Wink

And buy expensive Porsche hydro mounts!

Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rsxsr wrote:
Neil, I may have said this before, I tend to over engineer everything too. It is problematic with the race car, because of weight. With the vanagon, while weight is a consideration, it is not as critcial. I have no formal fabrication training. I am self taught. Truth is, from time to time, I come across engineers that have less ability to think through a problem. They might know the tensil strength of a bolt or be able to calculate the sheer loads, but give them a wrench and they get a blank look let alone handing them a welder.

I can tell you, I have often wasted time trying to preserve something by modifying it rather than starting from scratch. Often my projects are in phases. Usually phase 1 and 2 end up being discarded. Maybe you can support the engine from above and design an entire new cradle. You probably have some ideas of things you might have done differently anyhow. Good luck with the build. mark


Thanks. Was going to support from above. The winch I used for swapping engines is a worm gear type. Nice for fine tuning height. (I also keep a "safety" set of wood blocks underneath close to drivetrain)

I understand re: "over engineer". The weight difference, say between 1" x2" and 2" x 2" steel for arms, won't affect fuel efficiency enough to lose sleep over. If I lose sleep, I'll just carry less beer in my Westy. Wink

Good point re: "starting from scratch". Will likely start from scratch. Even just prep time to repaint existing carrier arms adds to project time length. Besides. I think I'm a better weldor now. Wink

Neil.

Lumber was shortened, blocks added to gain height.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

VE7TBN
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So who makes a plate for the 5?
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