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thefladge
Samba Member
Joined: July 25, 2005
Posts: 1290
Location: Anaheim, CA
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 Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:23 pm Post subject: Generator vs Alternator: Which Uses The Most HP? |
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The title says it all.
I'm wondering if an alternator on a Type 1 engine uses more engine horsepower to spin than a generator.
VW started using a thicker belt when they started putting alternators on Type 1 engines in mid-1973, and I wonder if that was the reason.
Anyone one out there ever dyno an engine with a generator and then an alternator to see if there is a difference?
_________________
1957 Vintage Baja Bug.
2110cc engine, 40 IDF Webers on Gene Berg manifolds, Engle 110 cam, Bugpack 40×35.5 Street Pro Heads, W8CC plugs, 12.5 pound Flywheel, Kennedy 1700 pound pressure plate.
Last edited by thefladge on Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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torsionbar
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Joined: December 11, 2010
Posts: 2215
Location: earf
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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who cares? neither one takes much power to drive them. the fan consumes more power than the alternator or generator.
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| Max Welton wrote: |
[air cooled vw's] are no longer suitable for the general public. The owner has to be be able to maintain the car. And that is after fixing all the deferred maintenance items and ill-conceived modifications. If you can't do those things you are pretty much screwed. |
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thefladge
Samba Member
Joined: July 25, 2005
Posts: 1290
Location: Anaheim, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| torsionbar wrote: |
| who cares? neither one takes much power to drive them. the fan consumes more power than the alternator or generator. |
I do.
_________________
1957 Vintage Baja Bug.
2110cc engine, 40 IDF Webers on Gene Berg manifolds, Engle 110 cam, Bugpack 40×35.5 Street Pro Heads, W8CC plugs, 12.5 pound Flywheel, Kennedy 1700 pound pressure plate. |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76940
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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Just by "feel" I think the alternator is heavier to spin.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12785
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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run an alternator. You can turn off the field current and charging if you want, AND they have a lot less rotating mass, they rev faster than generators do.
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| run an alternator. You can turn off the field current and charging if you want, AND they have a lot less rotating mass, they rev faster than generators do. |
X2 If you put a switch on your charging light, you can turn it off, and the Alt won't charge. If you're curious how much drag a charging Alt creates, turn your ignition on so your charging light is on, then spin the Alt with a drill. When the Alt starts charging, it will just about jerk the drill out of your hand. |
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Wayne26
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Joined: November 18, 2010
Posts: 284
Location: Houghton Lake MI
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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the more current used, more HP it takes.
I feel a big loss of pep when I turn my 9 six inch off road lights on. |
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Dale M.
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Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20380
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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It takes horsepower to make amperage....
It's more about efficiency.... Alternator will probably produce more amperage per horsepower consumed then a generator...
Why do you think every car manufactured today runs a alternator...
One also has to consider as we advanced to alternators we were using more electrical accessories in cars, and also generators were only capable of putting out about 30 amps (maybe 35) and alternator were capable of 55 amps so with the increase of the hp per amperage ratios it became necessary to have larger power transmission (belts) ...
Dale
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“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
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All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...
Last edited by Dale M. on Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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thefladge
Samba Member
Joined: July 25, 2005
Posts: 1290
Location: Anaheim, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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I was curious since the famous Gary Berg car always had a generator on the engine.
_________________
1957 Vintage Baja Bug.
2110cc engine, 40 IDF Webers on Gene Berg manifolds, Engle 110 cam, Bugpack 40×35.5 Street Pro Heads, W8CC plugs, 12.5 pound Flywheel, Kennedy 1700 pound pressure plate. |
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torsionbar
Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2010
Posts: 2215
Location: earf
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
| Alternator will probably produce more amperage per horsepower consumed then a generator... |
a rotational load is best expressed in torque. not horsepower. how many ft/lbs does it take to turn a 51 A alternator at full output?
or you can work it backwards if you really want a silly horsepower number. 51 A @ 14v = 714 watts. a typical automotive alternator is about 60% efficient (not counting the cooling fan of an air-cooled engine). so that's 1190w. 1 din hp = 735.5w. so that's 1.62 horsepower.
a generator is probably slightly less efficient, by how much i don't know. it can't be that much different. which means we're talking about fractions of 1 hp here. a negligible amount. which brings us right back to my first post:
| torsionbar wrote: |
| who cares? neither one takes much power to drive them. |
_________________
| Max Welton wrote: |
[air cooled vw's] are no longer suitable for the general public. The owner has to be be able to maintain the car. And that is after fixing all the deferred maintenance items and ill-conceived modifications. If you can't do those things you are pretty much screwed. |
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thefladge
Samba Member
Joined: July 25, 2005
Posts: 1290
Location: Anaheim, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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My old Motorola alternator that I bought back in 1987 seems to be getting tired.
I was just thinking a generator might be a possible alternative since I don't have any high amp accessories on my Baja Bug.
I'm wondering if Bosch still makes a Type 1 alternator or if I have to go with some "made in China" copy. Maybe my Motorola can be rebuilt.
_________________
1957 Vintage Baja Bug.
2110cc engine, 40 IDF Webers on Gene Berg manifolds, Engle 110 cam, Bugpack 40×35.5 Street Pro Heads, W8CC plugs, 12.5 pound Flywheel, Kennedy 1700 pound pressure plate. |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| thefladge wrote: |
| I'm wondering if Bosch still makes a Type 1 alternator or if I have to go with some "made in China" copy. Maybe my Motorola can be rebuilt. |
No, they don't, but like the Bosch 009 distributors, they're still available. Just prepare to bend over when finding out the asking price. |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76940
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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thefladge
Samba Member
Joined: July 25, 2005
Posts: 1290
Location: Anaheim, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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I suppose nobody rebuilds the Motorola alternators anymore.
_________________
1957 Vintage Baja Bug.
2110cc engine, 40 IDF Webers on Gene Berg manifolds, Engle 110 cam, Bugpack 40×35.5 Street Pro Heads, W8CC plugs, 12.5 pound Flywheel, Kennedy 1700 pound pressure plate. |
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[email protected]
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Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I could sell the 3 I have that I bought for $75 in 2003 for $100, and make a profit too. You won't find them from a retailer for $100. I could also sell my tune up sets for some 010 distributors I have for $20, and make a profit, but why is this person selling them for $75?
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=978052 |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76940
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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Because they are not Bosch parts.
Gotta love the cap with aluminum contacts.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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mark tucker
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Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| I like my 2 china copies just fine, they have out lasted the new bosch that lasted about 4 years under my foot. |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76940
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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I've seen a handful of the Chinese alternators have the shaft bearings fail in 6 months.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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69 Jim
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Joined: September 27, 2004
Posts: 6264
Location: Chickengeorge's Neighbor
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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I went with an NOS generator. I like the old school look, and my og AM/FM is all I have besides the Webers for sound:
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DarthWeber
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Joined: November 24, 2007
Posts: 7543
Location: Whittier,CA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| thefladge wrote: |
| I was curious since the famous Gary Berg car always had a generator on the engine. |
Just a guess but could it be that the Berg breather/oil separator wouldn't clear the alternator body??
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| Mitey62 wrote: |
| Swapped the Compufire for a Bosch blue and some points I had sitting around, started 1st crank. Took her out for a drive, pulls harder, more RPM, and runs smoother. I think I'll be sticking with points from now on. |
| RockCrusher wrote: |
JB weld the case halves....that'll keep the fretting to a minimum.  |
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