Subaru Engines Vs. VW Engines

[Joel]

[sullydog93]

Why buy a subaru engine from a recycler. Buy the used jap motors. All with 30k or less miles around 1400 dollars.

[nextgen]

OK what are we talking about when when we say VW.
Are we talking about a rotted out hunk of junk.
A sand rail that was designed for a VW.

Or are we taking about a freakin 40 year old or older classic that is only increasing in price day by day. Parts like a simple thermostat is rare and can cost now $100 bucks. Most bugs are still cheap but I have seen some in the 20 k range and they are getting more expensive day by day.
15 years ago OK maybe not a bad idea to put Subie in but not now. You are driving a rare car that is only getting rarer. My son in law has a 2011 Black Corvette , a freaking $ 80 k car and he laughs because my bug turns more heads and people actually jump out in front and want me to use their camera or IPHONE to take a picture of them and the kids.
I say keep your bug in good shape and it will be an investment.
Who the hell in 5 to 10 more years is going to buy a Bug, bus or ghia that has been torn apart with the air cooled engine ripped out. Am I missing something here, Rear Engine+ Bug + Air Coolled =Classic bug.
Wait, guys will be kicking themself in the ass when they try to sell a Subie Bug. Actually wait, what am I saying!!!!!! I think it is a great idea to rip your classic apart an put a water cooled engine in, the more guys do it the more my car will be worth. GO FOR IT--- PLEASE!!!
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[kevinhosp]

I am doing both my 68 bug 2332. My 66 chop top bug subaru ej20t. I decided to go with the subaru due to cost. I paid $900 for the engine with harness and computer and transmission. I found it locally from a guy on craigslist who bought it and never swaped it into is subaru wagon. It is the low mile japan import. There is a risk here but I am rolling the dice. Even with the adapter and a built 091 with a berg nose cone. It should come in at less the cost of a 2332 and that is not at todays prices. The 66 will be a driver and the 68 is a street legal drag car. Neither car is finished but yet. I loked at it as a 200 hp vw engine maybe 10000 miles a 250 plus subaru 100000 miles. When ever I get done I will know weather I made the right decision. Engine design has come a long way. The vw is a great engine and an engineering marvel but limited in hp. It really doesnt matter because its your car and your choice.

[Joel]

[MinamiKotaro]

Subaru. Not even a debate. The aircooled engine is in its death throes. If you want your VW to be something besides a museum piece, a Subaru swap is probably the most viable way to keep it on the road for a long time to come.
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1967 VW Beetle
2276cc
MegaSquirt-extra v3.57
Check out my ongoing story.

[uba]

I never understood why a VW body and a Subaru engine combo
is still called a VW and not a Subaru with a VW body....
_________________
1970 1600dp standard sedan, 1979 Panel Van

[Koyote]

As 69bajaguy wrote before :
the practical decision is obvious. Obvious in all points : power, longevity, power/cost ratio, parts availiblity...Obvious.

But as long I can drive my beetle and my buggy with an aircooled VW engine, I will do. I like that. I, like to drive my 69 to the drag strips, then race, the go back home by the road.
I like to say "yes it's still the vw aircooled engine in my car, and no, it's NOT a Porsche inside !"
That's the beauty of driving an VW aircooled engine. You can build it, upgrade it in your garage. It's a big part of the hobby.
And yes, you can make a lot of HP with this old technology ! that's matter for me...because it's just fun !

ps : sorry for my bad english...
_________________
2276cc daily draw through.

[Ian M]

Not knocking the guys who convert,I see the advantages of the Subaru engine, but they will never look and sound as good as a high performance VW engine. Nothing except a nasty v8 (arguably) sounds better than a healthy VW with a set of 48idas,and a 300+HP turbo vw just sounds plain badass.

Even fast Subarus sound like a redneck trike. I don't care that they make more power cheaper. The only thing that sounds worse is a Harley.

The day the ACVW motor is dead,and the only option is a Subaru is the day I am done with Volkswagens.

[bugnut68]

I think a factor people need to accept is this: if you hot rod Volkswagens, its' because you LIKE to work on your car. There are laundry lists a mile long for both pros and cons of modifying ancient, antiquated air-cooled engines to varied levels of performance versus buying a brand new purpose built from the factor performance car... it's an argument that no one would ever win, it all comes down to personal preference at the end of the day.
I see the validity in a Subaru conversion in some cases (a slow-ass bus or a baja or sandrail are even better, IMO) though I'm not sure I myself would be willing to do a Beetle conversion simply on the basis of the work involved
In any case, a person has to do their due diligence, no matter what they build... whether it's the labor involved to adapt a water cooled Subie engine or what parts in the Type 1 aftermarket aren't shitty, research is crucial.

[manoa]

[emberblade]

http://cbperformance.com/turbostreetengine.asp

A 2332cc Turbo Type 1 engine sounds badass.

Couple it to a new performance transmission and some new suspension components and it'll fly I bet.

[77charger]

[VWporscheGT3]

[Ghia Nut]

Now that I have my morning coffee next to me I can begin to put my -.02
My signature sounds pretty bias, and it is, but hear me out.

First off Id like to say that there are certainly different strokes for different folks. Id also like to say that it depends on the application and end goal which is what several have said here, and they were all valid and good points. And as Glen has said many a time fast, reliable, cheap, you can only pick two.

Since this is in the performance section Ill state the obvious that this means it is not a stock application. I will say that the standard typ1 vw engine is a beautiful and fun thing to work on and with. It certainly has simplicity going for it and can certainly be reliable... in stock application. Now if we are talking performance I would like to say it is awesome to see a hoped up vw engine that lopes a bit and can rip into a mustang and turn some heads. I saw jake's Bluebonic plague blip to 9000 rpms and tear into the concrete around 2001-'02 or so, all motor NA awesomeness. Ill never forget that being 17.
This was one of many events that made me say hey, I want that, I want to go fast.

My first step in my head was to build a 2332 monster. I started pricing everything I wanted then looked at Chico's motors and 2332s were around 6-7 grand. Looking at around 150-200 hp crank, this was back before they closed up shop. Then Raby came out with a lot of cool typ4 stuff so I started looking into that and started saving for one of those sweet engines. Then Thomas/Roach/OTOX_58 put it in my head that typ4's were way to expensive and I could get around the same performance by turboing a typ1. So I invested in the turbo setup to do that, still working on it to this day for my ghia... Ive had more engines in and out of the car at this point that the turbo kit has well taken to the shelf, it will get done one day.

I have never really been huge into the Japanese car scene so to speak, Ive always been to much of a vw guy to get into them. I will say that a lot of friends in college were into them at our local car club, nissans, hondas, subarus, you name it, it was there. This is where I got my first subaru experience. 300whp STi. God that car was fast with a flat torque curve. 120mph sweeping turns with my friend who I later was his best man at his wedding looking over at me at 120mph me hanging onto the oh shit bar and him calmly saying, "Im at 70% want to go faster? acting like we might as well be going 20mph. I digress. Any ways I never really gave much thought to them.

I usually dont like the idea of engine swaps, there is something wrong about it. Something that doesn't feel right. But I will tell you one thing, nothing feels as not right as a car that sits most of its time due to engine problems. The only problem I have ever had with my ghia was its engine, Ive done just about everything to my car, swapped from autostick to manual, full break job, replace beam, both calipers, electrical, suspension upgrades, you name it. I had one engine fail due to a horrible vac leak, and I had one that ate its cam and lifters. My Dad always beat it into my head, leave it stock and you will never have a problem. What my dad should have said is leave it stock so you will have less problems. Looking back I stand behind the choices I have made and mistakes as well, it was a learning experience. I owe most if not all of what I know about cars today because of the typ1. But lets be frank here, its a very old engine design.

So why did I choose to go with subaru? I went to graduate school and met another subaru guy. He had a wrx and we got to be good friends. We started talking and he showed me his car, it is a little rough but has character... much like our vws. We may not see it or understand it yet as most people on here didnt grow up with that, and thats completely understandable. We got to talking about his engine and I asked what he had on the clock mileage wise. He told me 220k. Ill admit, I cringed a bit as thats a lot of mileage for a car, much less one with a turbo. So he offered me a ride and I graciously accepted. This car was nuts... it was a little rickity Ill say that, but that thing pulled like an ox, and we are both big guys, around 200+ lbs. We got pulled over, of course and he nonchalantly talks to the cop and we drive away with no ticket. So I asked if this was the original engine, and he said yes. He then went into all the upgrades he had done here and there his dyno hp stuff, much like any performance vw person. He asked what kinda cars I was into and I told him old vws, at which he raised an eyebrow. We then got to discussing vw stuff, but really how much it costs for 150hp for a good "reliable" vw engine, which I told him was around 5,000. The dude started laughing at me. He then rattled of lists and specs of what he could do with 5 grand with a subaru. This placed the seed.

It then popped into my head, well its a flat four... wait, no, no way, just maybe? So I grabbed him between classes and brought a measuring tape. Sure enough his engine was VERY similar to the size of a vw engine, freakishly similar in size. Now I had seen V8 swaps with kennedy engineering adapters, and I don't like v8's. Im from Alabama so shitty straight piped v8 is the norm and I don't like their sound... thats how I grew up much like most of you guys grew up or got older around vw engines. Ferrari and Lambo v8's are ok mind you. So I knew there were engine adapters out there and I recall seeing a subaru engine in a bug some where along the line at a show or something... one of the cars you sneer at because its not stock and ugly. But I have to say when I think engine swaps on VW's, the one with the front mounted v8 and the gutted and chopped hood to get air to the radiator... I live in the south so yeah its common. Then I stumbled upon Joel's thread on shoptalkforums and then followed it over to aussievdubbers and looked at what he did. It was a very clean, well done, thought out, doable, reliable engine swap. No ugly holes in the hood to feed a radiator but a nice subtle scoop where your spare tire sits. 150hp out of the box naturally aspirated, no holy grail to find an engine builder worth their salt that you can trust or parts you have to order from California and wait 2 weeks to get here depending on the season. Go check out his thread on aussievdubbers, its a very complete thread filled with great ideas, successes and a failure due to electrolysis corrosion. My mind was blown, and if your engine blew too then you could easily find a donor engine in a heartbeat or walk to a suby stealership and get the parts. This made sense, too much sense. In addition subaru was much like if not just like VW in that their engine platform went across a wide range of models they made and is an engine platform that has been very successful. Combine these ideas with the fact that quality of vw parts has been steadily going down hill for some time and the choice and writing on the wall becomes much clearer. If you have some time you should search for some of Jake's comments on this, he is actually developing stuff for porsches and vws for subaru engines to be swapped. Thus began the quest to do a suby swap.

I was originally going to put it into my ghia as Ive always wanted that to be a fast car. Plans have changed and I'm not going to put it into the ghia any more as I would have to cut the nose to put it in there, and Im not going to do that. I don't like cutting cars. Now I know I will have to cut up the nose of a beetle a bit but its in an area that is rarely used so thats ok, and I will have to make the apron removable, but that's not cutting up the front of car to shoehorn a v8 into it then cut ugly air vents. So I will eventually pick up a bug and put my ej22t into that, when time and resources allow.

A vw to me is a vw to me. If it looks like a vw and operates like a vw its a vw, some people are more purists than others, and that is completely awesome to me. The lines can get blurred here when adding a suby engine to the mix, but lets be frank here, when you drive your vw, people remark about the fact they used to own one or they like it or do you want to sell it. They dont immediately come up and say, "hey let me check out your 1600 dp. Oh, you are using a 009, that is not the correct distributor and you should put a 010 or 019 on it", unless you are trying to enter into a pre '67 stock show class and you trailered it there to bring that big trophy home. If its an early early model, keep it stock, if its a car you want to drive reliably keep it with a 1600 or 1776 to keep up with traffic, want reliable cheaper performance, suby all the way.

In all honesty its about what you want and value in YOUR car. If you want to spend the 5-7k for a good "reliable" performance type 1, go for it man. For some people its worth it to spend that money on the big vw engine. Ive seen success stories on them, Ive also seen some really sad failures too where the process of both time and money had to be shed to fix it. I would love to see the pictures of the build and many people would love to discus what parts you want to put into it and how to do it. If you go the suby way, more power to you man. There's not a lot of love for that way (subaru) of thinking around here, but its grown a lot in popularity by some very reputable people in this hobby of vws.

And if you dont like the subaru sound, you can get equal length headers and the boxer rumble will be gone.

TL/DR "too long didnt read"
Story of why I chose subaru
Story of why its your car, do what you want
Why subaru is a good choice
Fast, Cheap, Reliable, you can only pick two.

quoted for the lol s and awesomeness

[bugnut68]

Subarus are a great option if one that doesn't want to be doing all the tweeking necessary on a regular basis with a high-end Type 1 engine... but one major point to be made with the Type 1 build is that I know very few people who expect to get 100K out of their Type 1 performance motor... most get bored and want to change the combo long before they blow it up or hit that 100K mileage marker, from my observations.

[Koyote]

[nextgen]

I'm into science fiction and have been a Star Trek Fan since day one. Last week I noticed a poll on the net as to what was better Star Trek or Star Wars. After reading a few pages of pros and cons one guy said " hey guys we have a common ememy, the Twilight Vampire shows".

I think the T-1 and T-4 guys have finally found theirs, The Subies!!!!
_________________
email: [email protected]
The TYPE IV UPRIGHT CONVERSION MANUAL
BEETLE MAGNETIC DEFLECTOR SHIELDS
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[bugnut68]

Over the years, I've seen really petty arguments break out on the web over whether early cars are cooler than late (post 67) cars, whether 67s are considered 'fat chicks,' bay window buses versus splits and all kinds of stupid BS... lol.
It's all pretty much driven me to the point where I take the VW scene a whole lot less serious and laugh at those that obsess over such stupid things. I'll probably never do a Subaru conversion, as I'm not really interested in the time/work investment necessary, but I respect the ones that are done well. Beats a V8 by all means.
I could care less at the end of the day whether a VW still has an air-cooled hot rod VW engine in back that was christened by some famous builder rubbing one out all over the cooling tin, down the carburetors or whatever. These cars are now in the old and collectible status, but by no means will they ever be viewed as reverently as an exotic European sports car with an illustrious racing heritage, IMO. They are unique and fun to play with, but that's as far as it goes for me.

[MinamiKotaro]