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cookrw Samba Member
Joined: June 09, 2009 Posts: 873 Location: Augusta, KY
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:05 pm Post subject: What goes into making a 1600 a 1776? |
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What has to be done to successfully make a 1600 a 1776? From what I have read, the case needs to get bored out to 90.5mm, but what else?
Can I use the rest of the stock 1600 internals? Do I need to do anything to the head? I know it will increase my CR, but would it be a problem past me maybe needing to run a higher octane gas? _________________ '71 Super 'Vert
'84 Vanagon GL (w/ Sunroof!)
'96 Jeep Cherokee |
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fivelugshortaxle Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2011 Posts: 4254 Location: Aumsville, Oregon
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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Stock 1600 pistons are 85.5 mm.....1776 pistons are 90.5.....the case gets cut a bit bigger for the cylinders....stock heads will work but you really only gain a bit of HP without head work....a stock valved head with mild port work and a good valve job will really wake up a 1776....that and a nice set od dual carbs....some 36's or even 40's.....throw in a nice mild cam like an Engle 110 or scat c35 and you've got yourself a nice little street motor with a good bit more power than stock and will feel like a ton more power in a lightweight beetle.....1776 is a good mild street motor that will last a looooong time if built correctly. _________________ Good things come to those who wait.
2332 with lots of goodies....
Rotating assembly balanced by Brothers VW
4340 84mm crank
AA 94mm p&c' s
Total seal 2nd ring, rest are Grants
5.5 h beams
Magnum straight cuts
Steve Long XR310 on a 106
CB 1.4 rockers
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NGK D7ea plugs
A1 lowdown 1 3/4 with single muffler
Dellorto 48's with 40 venturies
Kennedy Stage 2 with Daiken disc |
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gt1953 Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2002 Posts: 13848 Location: White Mountains Arizona
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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What has to be done to successfully make a 1600 a 1776?
$$$.$$ Balance the crank shaft for smoother running. you can use stock heads and valves but work them over for more air in and more air out of the cylinder. _________________ Volkswagen: We tune what we drive.
Numbers Matching VW's are getting harder to find. Source out the most Stock vehicle and keep that way. You will be glad you did.
72 type 1
72 Squareback
({59 Euro bug, 62, 63, 67, 68, 69, 73 type ones 68 & 69 type two, 68 Ghia all sold}) |
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DarthWeber Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2007 Posts: 7543 Location: Whittier,CA
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:16 pm Post subject: Re: What goes into making a 1600 a 1776? |
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Case and heads need to be bored. I recommend tapping the case for full flow oiling too. You can re-use the stock rods but I recommend counterweighting the crank. Everyone always says "Oh my motor will never see over 5k" but most people don't have that kind of control. For maximum case life a CW crank is a small investment.
For CR, going from 1600 to 1776cc, your CR will increase roughly from 7.5:1 to a little over 8:1 Shouldn't really be a problem other than maybe needing higher octane gas.
What are you going to use the engine for? What is your budget? Would you consider upgrading your heads, adding a cam, dual carbs, exhaust? All these would make the engine more efficient and powerful rather than just adding a set of P/C's. _________________
Mitey62 wrote: |
Swapped the Compufire for a Bosch blue and some points I had sitting around, started 1st crank. Took her out for a drive, pulls harder, more RPM, and runs smoother. I think I'll be sticking with points from now on. |
RockCrusher wrote: |
JB weld the case halves....that'll keep the fretting to a minimum. |
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cookrw Samba Member
Joined: June 09, 2009 Posts: 873 Location: Augusta, KY
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Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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At this point, I am doing a hypothetical build to start saving up for. I would like to get a long-life engine with more power than a 1600, and a 1776 looks like it is the most reliable. So, budget is not a problem right now. _________________ '71 Super 'Vert
'84 Vanagon GL (w/ Sunroof!)
'96 Jeep Cherokee |
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DarthWeber Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2007 Posts: 7543 Location: Whittier,CA
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Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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Don't discount the 1835. With the thick wall 92's available from AA I believe they would be just as reliable as 90.5's.
Also, don't forget about a small stroker crank like a 74mm. That would give you 1968cc (or 1904cc with 90.5 P/C's) and would be a very reliable foundation to base your engine on.
As I mentioned before, the addition of carbs/heads/exhaust and cam will determine how mild or wild you choose to go. _________________
Mitey62 wrote: |
Swapped the Compufire for a Bosch blue and some points I had sitting around, started 1st crank. Took her out for a drive, pulls harder, more RPM, and runs smoother. I think I'll be sticking with points from now on. |
RockCrusher wrote: |
JB weld the case halves....that'll keep the fretting to a minimum. |
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cookrw Samba Member
Joined: June 09, 2009 Posts: 873 Location: Augusta, KY
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Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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DarthWeber wrote: |
Don't discount the 1835. With the thick wall 92's available from AA I believe they would be just as reliable as 90.5's.
Also, don't forget about a small stroker crank like a 74mm. That would give you 1968cc (or 1904cc with 90.5 P/C's) and would be a very reliable foundation to base your engine on.
As I mentioned before, the addition of carbs/heads/exhaust and cam will determine how mild or wild you choose to go. |
I haven't discounted the 1835, I am just wary of going with that large of a motor. For just normal highway driving and puttering around, but with more torque, and the ability to actually go highway speed, which size would be the longest lasting?
I haven't really ever heard of the stroker crank much, so off to do some research! _________________ '71 Super 'Vert
'84 Vanagon GL (w/ Sunroof!)
'96 Jeep Cherokee |
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gt1953 Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2002 Posts: 13848 Location: White Mountains Arizona
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Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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Stroker crank...not much more in cost over a counter weighted ballanced 69mm crank. 74mm or 76 mm. You will get more torque. You can then use 85.5 pistons and very little head work.
A 76mm crank with 85.5 pistons is a 1745cc. I actually have that in one of my cars it the Hot VW mileage engine. _________________ Volkswagen: We tune what we drive.
Numbers Matching VW's are getting harder to find. Source out the most Stock vehicle and keep that way. You will be glad you did.
72 type 1
72 Squareback
({59 Euro bug, 62, 63, 67, 68, 69, 73 type ones 68 & 69 type two, 68 Ghia all sold}) |
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Henrip Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2011 Posts: 42 Location: Mcbo/Venezuela
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Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:13 am Post subject: |
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Actually I was thinking in build a 74mm with 87 piston, stock valves only port work, C35 cam and a central Italian 40 for my daily drive...
Has anyone tried this setup before? _________________ Bug 1959 (Sold)
Bug 1961 (Sold)
T2A Pickup 1970 |
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DarthWeber Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2007 Posts: 7543 Location: Whittier,CA
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Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:24 am Post subject: |
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Henrip, I assume a central Italian 40 is a single Weber 40IDF. You'd be much better off with dual 40IDF's. Easier to tune and more potential power, drivability and fuel mileage. I strongly recommend dual carbs.
Sorry for the hyjack Cookrw.
Are you aware of the P/C's in the link below? These 88's are thick wall machine in making them much more reliable than 87's. The base of the cylinders are turned down so they fit the stock 85.5 case spigot. All you'll need is to have your heads opened up to fit the cylinders.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=806472
I like your combo. 1760 (or 1800 w/88's), mildly ported stock valve heads, Weber 40IDF's, C35 cam, 1 3/8" exhaust will work if you don't do a lot of high speed driving.
Krusher has a similar 1800 (88 x 74), this is his dyno chart:
_________________
Mitey62 wrote: |
Swapped the Compufire for a Bosch blue and some points I had sitting around, started 1st crank. Took her out for a drive, pulls harder, more RPM, and runs smoother. I think I'll be sticking with points from now on. |
RockCrusher wrote: |
JB weld the case halves....that'll keep the fretting to a minimum. |
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cookrw Samba Member
Joined: June 09, 2009 Posts: 873 Location: Augusta, KY
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Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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This looks very interesting. I have an email in with some questions about these. Has anyone used this before?
DarthWeber wrote: |
Are you aware of the P/C's in the link below? These 88's are thick wall machine in making them much more reliable than 87's. The base of the cylinders are turned down so they fit the stock 85.5 case spigot. All you'll need is to have your heads opened up to fit the cylinders.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=806472
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_________________ '71 Super 'Vert
'84 Vanagon GL (w/ Sunroof!)
'96 Jeep Cherokee |
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cookrw Samba Member
Joined: June 09, 2009 Posts: 873 Location: Augusta, KY
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Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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Also, if I am getting the head worked on, what else should I do? From what I understand, airflow through the head is what limits my max rpm, so just to be safe, should I keep it stock? What benefits happen if I do other things to the head? _________________ '71 Super 'Vert
'84 Vanagon GL (w/ Sunroof!)
'96 Jeep Cherokee |
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Henrip Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2011 Posts: 42 Location: Mcbo/Venezuela
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:36 am Post subject: |
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DarthWeber wrote: |
Henrip, I assume a central Italian 40 is a single Weber 40IDF. You'd be much better off with dual 40IDF's. Easier to tune and more potential power, drivability and fuel mileage. I strongly recommend dual carbs.
Are you aware of the P/C's in the link below? These 88's are thick wall machine in making them much more reliable than 87's. The base of the cylinders are turned down so they fit the stock 85.5 case spigot. All you'll need is to have your heads opened up to fit the cylinders.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=806472
I like your combo. 1760 (or 1800 w/88's), mildly ported stock valve heads, Weber 40IDF's, C35 cam, 1 3/8" exhaust will work if you don't do a lot of high speed driving. |
Thanks for your response and help... I will try to go with duals.
I was worry about the thickness of the cylinder piston in this 88s set.
Thanks again for the link. _________________ Bug 1959 (Sold)
Bug 1961 (Sold)
T2A Pickup 1970 |
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66 Shorty Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 916 Location: Rhode Island
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:00 am Post subject: |
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Henrip wrote: |
Actually I was thinking in build a 74mm with 87 piston, stock valves only port work, C35 cam and a central Italian 40 for my daily drive...
Has anyone tried this setup before? |
Sounds like the 1760 motor I'm gettin ready to build!
I have the 87mm pistons, C35 cam, looking into getting the stroker crank & some rods... I was going to go with Uni-Tech rods, but, they are STILL out of stock! I have a set of dual carbs for it. (I just don't remember what size he said they were ) I'm using stock heads/valves, (unless I hit the lotery & get new heads ) & I'm going to use solid shafts with stock rockers. I'm hoping to get away with stock pushrods, but, I don't think I can... Not sure, I AM using Scat single Hi-Rev springs...
Still undecided on what rods & length to go with, 5.500, 5.400, 5.394, 5.354, etc...
Mine's going in a Buggy, so, I'm thinking it should move it pretty well! _________________ ~X-Man~
'60's Spatz Buggy body on '74 Chassis (Budget Build)
'69 Bug (Baja-to-be partial daily)
'10 Silverado (My daily) |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:41 am Post subject: |
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if it's a 76-84 crank I would use 5.5 rods, well I would use them on 74 also.but I do have the 5.4 uni's in my 2028 with 78.8 mm crank, but had to trim the cylinders shorter.longer rods & shims are alot easyer unless you can do it your self. |
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bertha64 Samba Member
Joined: May 09, 2010 Posts: 32 Location: tampa florida
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:40 am Post subject: |
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gt1953 wrote: |
Stroker crank...not much more in cost over a counter weighted ballanced 69mm crank. 74mm or 76 mm. You will get more torque. You can then use 85.5 pistons and very little head work.
A 76mm crank with 85.5 pistons is a 1745cc. I actually have that in one of my cars it the Hot VW mileage engine. |
Would this motor be faster than 1776 stock crank and can you use stock rods? |
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andk5591 Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005 Posts: 16757 Location: State College, PA
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:51 am Post subject: |
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Throwing this out there - it costs about the same to build a 1914. Getting a few extra cc's out of the deal isnt a bad thing. And keep in mind that you want to build an engine based on what you are going to use it for. Huge ports, high lift monster header and all are great for high RPMs, but for a street engine, you will rarely see 5000 RPMS. And you can get a LOT of low end grunt from a 1914.
And staying conservative will give you longer life as well. Modest cam or ratio rockers, ported stock or mild aftermarket heads will do a lot for you. Quality filter pump or full flow is a great idea as well. Also keep the header size small 1 3/8" ish. _________________ D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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Mal evolent Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2009 Posts: 2912 Location: San Antonio, Nuevo Mexico
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:30 am Post subject: |
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discount the 1835 if you live in the southwest. thin cylinder walls, uneven heat dissipation, 115 degree days... _________________ 73 Beetle Baja, Ghia front brakes, Type 3 rear brakes, 2220 ( 94 X 80 ), Weber Progressive, Bosch SVDA, '97 Mustang seats
Baja Bugs for Volkswagen Virgins: Index |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002 Posts: 12785 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:35 am Post subject: |
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http://vwparts.simple-helix.net/1800cc-vw-engine-no-machine-combo/
has some great tips and things to think about for what you are doing. _________________ It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!
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clonebug Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2005 Posts: 4028 Location: NW Washington
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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I just had the 1679cc engine built and will be boosting it to at least 12 lbs.
I'm using the 88 mm thick walls from acnet.
We'll see how it holds up.
I don't see a problem for street use.
It should be fun...... _________________
vwracerdave wrote: |
Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see. |
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My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
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http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936 |
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