| Author |
Message |
presslab
Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008
Posts: 1730
Location: Sonoma County
|
 Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:01 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| IdahoDoug wrote: |
| Soft springs would be shown as sagging. If they hold the vehicle statically at its correct ride height, they are not soft per se, though they can have an incorrect reaction to being compressed further. |
Static ride height is not a good indicator of spring stiffness. A soft spring with more preload (longer free length) can have the same ride height as a firm spring with less preload.
| IdahoDoug wrote: |
| The video shows a spring blowing through its travel. The job of a shock absorber is to control the spring's power and prevent that. |
Compression damping basically adds to the spring rate, depending on the velocity of the damper movement. The less travel, the more compression damping is needed. The Vanagon has a good amount of travel, so it needs less compression damping compared to say, a regular sedan. Again, these are pretty large bumps he's going over. If this type of terrain were the norm, sure, a stiffer spring and/or more compression damping would be in order. But this will affect smaller bumps and make the ride harsh.
| IdahoDoug wrote: |
| In my opinion, springs and shocks should never, ever be purchased separately. They should be designed together. The shock design parameters need to have the spring rates in mind. You can have fabulous springs, and fabulous shocks, but designed separately so that they work terribly together. |
Yes, ideally we could buy a matched set. The only one I know of are the original factory ones. Otherwise, we try to figure it out and make due with what is available to us. Adjustable shocks go a long way to getting a matched set.
_________________
1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
IdahoDoug
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 10251
Location: N. Idaho
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yep, agree with your comments. The adjustable shocks go a long ways toward helping. As for paired springs/shocks, I thought I read somewhere that OME makes a setup for the Vanagon? They generally do a shock/spring matched set if so and they are also very good at tuning - obviously with an offroad mindset.
My overall comment, I guess, is to suggest that people be aware that a brand new shiny set of shocks may be poorly matched to factory springs, or to replacement springs if they were not designed as a set. Suspension setup is a complex feat if you want the vehicle to behave safely in an emergency evasive maneuver, and ride comfortably at no load/half load/full load, handle big low frequency bumps, etc. The "safe" choice is almost always the original equipment. Second in my mind would be a set of springs/shocks designed together.
DougM
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
j_dirge
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Installed the Monroe MaxAirs today...
(removing my 3 yr old coil-over Sensatracs for now.)
0-20psi the van sits at sprung height to +1/8"
(in this case 17-3/4", on Syncro.org springs from 2010)
..and the ride is pleasant.
Absorbs... not so harsh unloaded as the Sensatracs.
40psi takes it up 3/8-1/2" (18-1/4")
80psi takes it up 1".. about where the coil-over Sensatracs would sit.
I really want these to work.
Imagine! Adjustability to load... with 1960s technology! 
I am not impressed with the plasti-cky fittings.. Though they seal easier/better than Air-Lift clip over barb method, true.
So.. Will the assembly hold air over night?.. maybe a week? or more !!??
Anticipation....
If they hold, I am ordering an extra valve accessory kit.. having two filling valves, and independent control of each shock in the rear may be a nice touch.
_________________
-89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
| danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
|
Last edited by j_dirge on Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
idahoskier
Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2009
Posts: 161
Location: Donnelly, ID
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I had a set of Monroe air adjustables on my old Jeep Cherokee. I used it for work and had to carry a lot of weight frequently. I felt the same about the fittings when I saw/installed them. I used this setup for three years and I never experienced any sort of a leak. They let me carry a wide range of loads while maintaining proper handling and ride height. I am curious to hear your impressions of ride quality in varying conditions as compared to the Sensatracs.
_________________
85 Westy w/ 2.2L Subaru
91 Westy w/ 2.5L Subaru - sold |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
j_dirge
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
First impressions are they ride much nicer around town with a lightly loaded van. 
20psi is cool. Still corners flat, thanks in part to the Addco 25mm sway bar up front.
Also rides OK at 0 psi which is good to know if they do spring a leak and I am not in the comfort of my own garage.
Rebound may be a bit soft.. but that may just be me used to the lack of compression due to the coil-overs and riding on D-rated sidewalls.
I'll report more as I have some more varied conditions to drive thru.
_________________
-89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
| danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
davevickery
Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2005
Posts: 2887
Location: Fort Collins, CO
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| davevickery wrote: |
I just ordered the Monroe coil overs 58632.
Compare the length to the Bilsteins a lot of people use:
58632 13.625 21.625
Bilstein 13.78 - 21.4
When I get them on I'll report back with before and after heights and handling.
The 58595s are 13.000 20.875 inches This seems on the short side but I guess they work . |
I do think the 58632 is the right shock to get. I think the 58595 could top out based on how these looked installing them and the specs above. These went on with no cutting of the upper shock mount for my 87 which some people have reported with the 58595s. I did have to bend the flap of metal that sticks out and touches the shock coils, but pretty simple with some vice grips. I used a couple washer to snug the mounts up, otherwise perfect fit. They feel fine driving but I haven't tested them on anything yet. They lifted the van in the back an inch (to 16.75 & 17.5) which is what I wanted. Still have the Westy lean though, so I'll need some cutting board spacers for the left side. Tomorrow I will try to get the Moog front springs on which should level it out. The shocks were around $110 w free shipping from Amazon and the the Moog 5660 springs were only $50 free shipping from Amazon.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
purplepeopleeater
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2005
Posts: 3117
Location: E. Washington
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I put monroes all the way around, gave me about 1.5'' of lift all the way around and when unloaded im level.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
madspaniard
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2008
Posts: 3795
Location: Alameda, CA
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Would be helpful if people also tell us their spring setup when they post about their shocks here
_________________
1991 Westy auto w/ Peloquin TBD
"The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad” - Salvador Dali |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
purplepeopleeater
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2005
Posts: 3117
Location: E. Washington
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Stock springs, monroes up front 58253 rear 58633's
I was sitting around 16'' and i'm about 18'' now, okay I lied..2'' of lift.
I love it, handles so nice now.
However, I did not cut my rear/upper mounts like everyone is....cleared it fine. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jon_slider
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2007
Posts: 5091
Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shadetreetim
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2011
Posts: 1994
Location: Riverside, California
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Jon_slider wrote: |
Without shocks, the springs would bounce all the time.
|
Yep. You ever drive a car without shocks? I have. It bounces constantly from any input, bumps, brakes, people moving, wind turbulence... running over ants in the road...  Really lets you know how important good shocks are.
_________________
Tim Potts
Doing my best every time I drive it to dispel the myth these Vanagons have to be slow!
'89 Vanagon Bluestar/Country Homes 1.8T & .77 4th
'74 Jeep CJ5 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
davevickery
Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2005
Posts: 2887
Location: Fort Collins, CO
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| purplepeopleeater wrote: |
| Stock springs, monroes up front 58253 rear 58633's. I was sitting around 16'' and i'm about 18'' now, okay I lied..2'' of lift. I love it, handles so nice now. |
After reading your post, I decided to try the 58253s up front too. It is nice to have helper shocks all the way around and it's much easy to put them on.
But I'm wondering what you did for hardware up front. I found the lower bolt did not fit through the shock mount so I bought a 1/2" bolt from Ace for that. The upper mount did not allow the sleeve to fit on, so I didn't use it and I used one of the rubber bump stops that came in the package. I reused the top rubber and plate and put an extra washer on there, since it was a little sloppy without the sleeve. How does that compare to what you did?
Thanks very much,
Dave |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
purplepeopleeater
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2005
Posts: 3117
Location: E. Washington
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I used a grade 8 bolt and locknut on the lower mount, I couldn't find bushings to center the shock on the lower mount so I made some outta round stock and slipped them iover the bolt one at a time.
Works awesome. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thegromit
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12
Location: on the road
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
how do the monroes 58253s in the front stack up against the koni reds?
I think I'm going to run the monroe max-air in the rear with go-westy 1.5'' spings but not sure of the front yet? Anyone got a good idea? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jteerlink
Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2007
Posts: 167
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
A front shock comparison:
Koni red w/stock springs vs. Monroe 58253 w/GW 1.5" lift springs
I would say that after driving my brothers 2wd van with the red koni/stock springs setup and then driving MY 2wd van (same environment) with the monroe 58253's/GoWesty-Gucci 1.5" lift springs it's sixes and depends what your final goal is for your rig. Do new springs make this shock comparison "apples to oranges", possibly. But for the sake of comparison, here ya go!
Both the Koni and Monroe were similarly stiff while cornering and driving with a driver and passenger in the van. However, I found that the monroe rebound/wobble rate was dramatically quicker than the koni which made me feel as though the front tires rarely if ever left the ground. This provided a quicker (borderline jarring) upward motion upon coming off a drop like a speed bump or small rock ledge. The Koni, while equally stiff felt like the rebound rate was more forgiving with a normal control of van wobble. Again I would mention that the only caveat to consider in this comparison is that the monroes are paired up with new, freshly installed GW progressive springs and the Konis were in stock 87' springs.
So, for me I wanted clearance height and rigidity while the van was weighted down with gear and family, whereas my brother just wanted a controlled ride without the Sync-faux look.
By the way, my rear shocks are air adjustable Gabriel HiJackers with the 1.5" lift springs and my kids/wife love the ride back there so that's not going change. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
presslab
Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008
Posts: 1730
Location: Sonoma County
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Jteerlink wrote: |
| However, I found that the monroe rebound/wobble rate was dramatically quicker than the koni which made me feel as though the front tires rarely if ever left the ground. This provided a quicker (borderline jarring) upward motion upon coming off a drop like a speed bump or small rock ledge. |
Thanks for the comparison. So to sum this up, you're saying the compression damping is about the same, but the Koni has a more controlled rebound; is that about right?
Do you know what "setting" your brother had on his Koni shocks?
_________________
1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jteerlink
Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2007
Posts: 167
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| compression damping is about the same, but the Koni has a more controlled rebound; is that about right? |
in my opinion, yes
| Quote: |
| Do you know what "setting" your brother had on his Koni shocks? |
I think he has them 1.5 turns above the soft setting? Not positive, will have to check |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thegromit
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12
Location: on the road
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Well parts showed up today. Pretty stoked. I got the GW 1.5'', koni reds for the front and monroe airs for the rear. I'm going with some 215/75 15 tires. Ill start work after the first then post some pictures and a review.[/img] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
davevickery
Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2005
Posts: 2887
Location: Fort Collins, CO
|
| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 8:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| davevickery wrote: |
| purplepeopleeater wrote: |
| Stock springs, monroes up front 58253 rear 58633's. I was sitting around 16'' and i'm about 18'' now, okay I lied..2'' of lift. I love it, handles so nice now. |
After reading your post, I decided to try the 58253s up front too. It is nice to have helper shocks all the way around and it's much easy to put them on. |
OK so a follow up to this. I tried both the 58632's and the 58633s for the rear. The 633s are an inch taller and have to be compressed slightly to get them mounted. But even though they are longer and have the same spring weight they didn't lift the rear of my westy anymore than the 58632s. So I stayed with the 58632. They initially lifted the rear by about 1.25 inches.
I wasn't level in the rear by 3/4" so after adding a 1/2" spacer to the left and it sits level (1/2"spacer = 3/4" lift). Now the front end with the 58253s is now noticably lower than the rear. I am just over 16" up front. So I don't know how this combination can work unless you haver taller springs up front (like maybe 85 or GW lift springs. I may try the Moog 5660's up front (which are supposed to add an inch plus). I may stick with the Monroe helper shocks or just try something else. Main thing is it has to get leveled out more. It's weird that what works on one van can be different on another. $300 for the GW 2wd lift springs is looking like a better idea to me now.
[Edit: These rear Monroe coil over shocks are o.k. Not great but they do give an inch lift. Probably best suited for levelling out a heavy rear end, like if you have a heavier engine. The front Monroe coil overs did a good job of raising the front end about an inch. But they are not a direct bolt on. The biggest problem for me, after putting the rears on, then the fronts, both ends came up about an inch, but the westy lean was worse, from about 1/2" lower in LR to about 3/4" lower compared to RR. Front to back was about right. I think that took my westy from about 15.25 to 15.75 all around to 16.25 to 17 all around. Adding a 1/2" spacer to LR changed things a lot. The rears came up to 17.5 on both sides which was nice, but the front dropped to 16. That was a bit surprising. It looked terrible and handled worse. Removing the rear coil overs leaving in the spacer and the front coil overs brought the van down to 16.5 all around. So I may leave it like that or try something else. I think the Moog 5660 would bring the front up 1.25" without the coil overs from what I have read, and the Moog 5658 will bring it up a little less than that. I already have the 5660s that I can try. With those up front I could put the rear coil overs back on and probably come out pretty close to level at 17.5" all around. So just be aware, changing one thing changes others, so this is a bit of trial and error. I'd say if your van leans, do the spacer first and then see where you sit]
Last edited by davevickery on Sun May 20, 2012 5:51 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thegromit
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12
Location: on the road
|
| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 7:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well I just finished my suspension and wheels really happy with the results and the looks of it. The ride is much more firm.
My set up is:
Go westy 1.5" springs
Koni in the front 2nd setting
monroe max airs rear 25 psi
215/75 15 BFG A/T
Locker would be nice
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
