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'82 vs. '83 diesel engine carrier bar differences
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pedrokrusher
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:20 pm    Post subject: '82 vs. '83 diesel engine carrier bar differences Reply with quote

Hello volks

I've been reading (sometimes "fast reading") and searching around a lot of postings and never found an answer to some questions I have... Damned did I search...

I did not find appropriate to ask that question in my other thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=493964

So I decided to start a new one for archival purposes, and to gather all info in one easy thread to find (i hope!), sorry if there was such a posting...

1- Why are those bars all bented the way they are? To tell you the thruth, I am modifying my right side '82 engine carrier bars so it fit the air con compressor on my TDI ALH conversion. My physics comprehension is that the two end of the carrier bar has to be alligned with the engine mount in the middle of the bar, is that correct?

2- Why change from the rubber bushings at each end for the 81 and 82 bars, then go for solid mounts at each end for the 83 bars? The way I see it. I believe there is a good advantage to keep the rubber mounts at each end of the bars, PLUS a good engine mount in the middle, like the audi 5000 hydrolick mount.

3- Is there any other differences for the syncro models?

4- What kind of reinforcements does the diesel vanagons have to cope with the added weight on the "rear post"? How can I replicate that?

What do you guys think?
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1989 vanagon Karmann Gipsy #652, TDI AFN
1991 vanagon westfalia conversion TDI ALH Silverfox
ex-1989 vanagon syncro passenger Syncrofox (Sold)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=598791&highlight=
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=493964&highlight=speed+aap+trans
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=496589&highlight=carrier+bars
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=506025
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One major difference between the early and late style bars is that the later bars (83) position the engine further back for use with the 091/1 and 094 transmissions. The 82 bars would need to be modified for use with the later style transmissions.

The Syncro bars are different. They look like the 83 bars but have the engine mounts dropped about 2 more inches.

The attachments at the rear have mounting plates welded to the attachment area. No other reinforcing of that structural area was done.

Not sure why they went away from the isolating bushings of the early style. It might be they the bushings wore quickly and stopped doing their job.

David
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:33 pm    Post subject: Re: '82 VS '83 diesel engine carrier bars differences Reply with quote

pedrokrusher wrote:
.........

4- What kind of reinforcements does the diesel vanagons have to cope with the added weight on the "rear post"? How can I replicate that?

What do you guys think?



Here is what I have done, mostly mimicking the VW method.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Mark
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pedrokrusher
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks David for your info. I did not know that the 83 bars positions the engine further back... Oh well, mine were cut to accomodate the audi 5000 hydraulick mounts anyway... My theory in the isolating bushings eliminated in the later bars (83) is cost, they put a bigger engine mount to eliminate the small isolating bushings... There might be another reason that I don't know...

Thanks Marc for the pictures! Now I have something to show my mechanic. That is really all that VW did? I'm surprised cause that "rear post" is pretty small, the wall thickness is thin and sorta flexes. IMHO, it needs some reinforcement the whole lenght.

What about the bents?
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1989 vanagon Karmann Gipsy #652, TDI AFN
1991 vanagon westfalia conversion TDI ALH Silverfox
ex-1989 vanagon syncro passenger Syncrofox (Sold)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=598791&highlight=
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=493964&highlight=speed+aap+trans
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=496589&highlight=carrier+bars
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=506025
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mmmdiesel
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is interesting I didn't realize there is a difference between the early and later diesel mounts. Given this fact, Can anyone comment on whether one set of bars is better or more suited to a tdi conversion or do the both have their merits? I ask this as I've been holding onto my '83 diesel for donor purposes, but I really don't like the idea of the omission of the isolation bushings.
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On my 82, old style carriers, to make room for the AC compressor, I cut the rear bushing end on the carrier bar off temporarily. I then cut the bar in two just behind the engine mount attachment. about midway on the bar. I sleeved it with a peice of 1 3/8ths tube rotated the rear section out board and welded. I reattached the bushing end reclocked and made a new mounting longer plate with some tabs. It utilized the original 3 8 mm mounting bolts and a 4th bolt further outboard. This gave me the room I needed to clear the compressor.

I have since added Saab engine mounts, but the bar is still in it's modified location. With the Saab mounts I added a solid cross bar to tie the two into each other like the early diesel did. I don't have a picture of the modified valance bracket, but here is a picture I took of the carrier bars after adding the saab mounts. The bars look unmolested where I cut it and reindexed it. mark

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VW built diesel vans beginning in model year 1981 thru model year 1992. Over 600,000 diesel versions were built over 12 model years. If the rear member was not strong enough for the job we would surely know by now.

The rubber end mounts were dropped when the new 5 speed compatible carrier bars came out for 83. The longer trans and higher position of the tranny side lever made moving the tranny/engine back some very advantageous.

Later the rubber end mount was brought back, but only for the left side bar and only for some models. Syncro never had the rubber end mounts and because of the way VW mounted the engine protection skid plate to the carrier bars the Syncro bars must be rigidly mounted.

For 2wd there are different left side bars used over the years/models and different right side bars. The last production of right side bar had different bends to make more room for extra pulleys on that side.

Mark



pedrokrusher wrote:
....That is really all that VW did? I'm surprised cause that "rear post" is pretty small, the wall thickness is thin and sorta flexes. IMHO, it needs some reinforcement the whole lenght.

What about the bents?
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mmmdiesel wrote:
This is interesting I didn't realize there is a difference between the early and later diesel mounts. Given this fact, Can anyone comment on whether one set of bars is better or more suited to a tdi conversion or do the both have their merits? I ask this as I've been holding onto my '83 diesel for donor purposes, but I really don't like the idea of the omission of the isolation bushings.


I have run both '82 and '83 carrier bars and do not notice a significant difference in vibration either way.

The '83 bars are easier in that they position the engine to fit any of the later transmissions. They also eliminate the need for the flat bar that runs under the engine and attaches the two carrier bars together.

If the '82 bars are used, it is easier to modify and flip the front trans mount around which results in the trans moving forward to accommodate the position of the '82 engine mounts. Then shortening the shift linkage rod the same amount is all that is necessary.
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pedrokrusher
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Mark (rsxrs) for your input. I read about your modifications in another thread and loved it, specialy that you also use the ALH TDI!! Yeah my right carrier bar was modified somewhat the same way with inserts.

Mark (crazyvwvanman), thanks for reasuring me regarding my concern with the "rear post" looking weak. I feel better now!! Smile So there was that much more different carrier bars? Holy cow, we'll have a very hard time telling them apart.

Andrew, very interesting that there was no significance in vibrations between the 82 and 83 bars... Mmmmm, anyone had different results with different mounts, like with hydraulick mounts?

Ok, regarding my first question:
1- Why are those bars all bented the way they are? To tell you the thruth, I am modifying my right side '82 engine carrier bars so it fit the air con compressor on my TDI ALH conversion. My physics comprehension is that the two end of the carrier bar has to be alligned with the engine mount in the middle of the bar, is that correct?

What I'm trying to figure with my first question and nobody answered, is that if there is any concern in eliminating the last bend of the right side carrier bar to contour the AC compressor, and just go strait to the rear. BUT, doing so, we move the rear most mount closer towards the right tailight, and that puts the engine mount out of axis alignement with the front and rear carrier bar mounts. Is that ok or a bad idea? I believe the weight of the engine will twist the carrier bar and put extra strain on the isolating bushings. And since I have the 82 bars, it will most probably twist the left side.

Thanks for your help!!
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1989 vanagon Karmann Gipsy #652, TDI AFN
1991 vanagon westfalia conversion TDI ALH Silverfox
ex-1989 vanagon syncro passenger Syncrofox (Sold)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=598791&highlight=
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=493964&highlight=speed+aap+trans
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=496589&highlight=carrier+bars
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=506025
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why are those bars all bented the way they are?

It was probably easier in production to bend tube that would fit than to weld something from square tube or to make a subframe from stamped sheetmetal. Plus they needed something to fit the chassis regardless of engine choice.

I don't know about the end alignment of the carrier bars, but if you compare the left rear to the right rear in relation to the frame rails, I recall the driver's side is further outboard compared to the passenger side. Once I modified the passenger carrier bar to clearance the compressor, it actually put it closer to matching the driver's side rear when measured from the frame rail .

I am happy with phase 3 of my engine suspension system. Prior to adding the Saab mounts, the drivers side carrier bar seemed to be in a twist at the front bushing. I don't know if it was a case of the extra weight, which seems to be carried by the driver's side carrier bar or what. Even with new end bushings, it wanted to twist. The factory flat bar that tied the two together really did not help and a flat bar only offers so much bracing. I used round tube in phase 2 and phase 3. You end up basically with an engine support cradle that can be assembled or disassembled. Adding the Saab mounts removed the twist on the bar.

Don't forget about a torque limiting mount. In the end, that was the major improvement for resonance and vibration through the shift lever. My custom hitch ties the frame rails and the rear valance together. I used two of the rear carrier bolts and tabs on the hitch to tie it all in better even though my vanagon was a diesel and had the reinforced rear valance.
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1990 Vanagon Camper project Syncro conversion.
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pedrokrusher
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Mark (rsxrs) for your help. Here is your post with pictures of your torque mount:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=396892&start=60


In regards of my first question, I guess I just cannot explain it properly... I will post pictures soon of my modified right side carrier bar and let you know my findings... Hopefully with good results, or I'll start it again!

This add just posted today!!! These bars are super nice reprobuctions and he kept all the original bends...

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1253156

I wish I could know why he kept those bends.
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1989 vanagon Karmann Gipsy #652, TDI AFN
1991 vanagon westfalia conversion TDI ALH Silverfox
ex-1989 vanagon syncro passenger Syncrofox (Sold)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=598791&highlight=
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=493964&highlight=speed+aap+trans
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=496589&highlight=carrier+bars
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=506025
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91Transporter16"
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:53 am    Post subject: carrier Bars Reply with quote

Hey Pedro,
Good to see somebody taking on the challenge of moding carrier bars. Regarding your question about why I kept those bends. The design needs to stay like the original to keep things uncomplicated. Any time you mod a part, there is a chance that it will not fit. Custom work is easy when you do it yourself. If I were to make a different bend on a bar, It may hit a pulley or something else. If you look at my web site or ad, you can see that I produce the rear mount support that gets welded to the rear of the frame, This plate needs to have a bend on the top to give it strength. A nut is welded to the top hole for fastening. The most important thing about these mounts is that they need to be aligned so the engine is level and not twisted.
Tony
vwsyncrocarrierbars.com
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pedrokrusher
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The most important thing about these mounts is that they need to be aligned so the engine is level and not twisted.


Hi Tony, tx for your input. You are bang on by saying that the mounts have to be aligned (both end rubber mounts with the motor mount in the center in a strait line)... Since no one could confirm before, I had to move the rear passanger side rubber mount back to the original location on that rear wall on the vanagon, because the hydraulick mount in the center was twisting towards the floor... like ten degrees downward... Anyway all is good now and pictures will follow when time permits it.

I got my van back from the shop and the Audi 5000 hydraulick mounts works sooooo good with my '82 carrier bars, compared to the very small '82 motor mounts that was there before. I just cannot believe the movement of the engine. The TDI ALH engine moves like one inch up and down when pressing on the gas. The only very small vibration I feel now is in the steering wheel and on the shifter. No more mirrors shaking at a stop light.

The test drive did not show me that a torque mount was needed at this moment, but maybe I was smililng so hard that I did not notice anything. Further investigation will be done after march 15th, as this is the date where cars without winter tires can roll on Quebec roads, and that's why the test drive was done with garage license plates to make it legal.

I did not have time to take pictures since I'm working lots of hours latelly, sorry!

And by the way, excellent work on your reproduction bars! I would have bought a set if I was not that far off with my "experiments". My mechanic might buy a set soon for another diesel project.

Pictures soon!!!
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1989 vanagon Karmann Gipsy #652, TDI AFN
1991 vanagon westfalia conversion TDI ALH Silverfox
ex-1989 vanagon syncro passenger Syncrofox (Sold)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=598791&highlight=
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=493964&highlight=speed+aap+trans
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=496589&highlight=carrier+bars
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=506025
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91Transporter16"
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't wait to see the pictures. Check out the red color carrier bars. This is the color I'm going to use for my truck.
Be careful with too much movement with the engine mounts. It sound like you might be flexing too much. One way to test the movement is to block the front tires while you drive the rear wheels. The engine will begin to torque before the rear wheels turn. If the engine moves a lot on the mounts, you might have a problem.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1253156
vwsyncrocarrierbars.com
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pedrokrusher
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Volks

(Tony (91Transporter16"), sorry for taking so long, I finally got around taking pictures! Hopefully it doesn't look too amateurish. I realy like the hydraulic mounts, a little less for the look of the "S" bent... I'll work on that later)

I finally got around taking pictures of my modified carrier bars with audi 5000 hydraulic motor mounts. Its so much smoother than before. But there is a small vibration that started and its sounds like its probably coming from the shifter rods. I'll check on those more later...

My modified passenger bar to accomodate the air conditioning looks weirder on the picture... oh well...The bends were fabricated with inserted tubings on all cuts, so no way it would snap off at a weld. The mounts for the hydralic mounts are a little overkill, but I like it like that. No way they are going south this way.

Oh and don't look at my temporary muffler, cause, its temporary... And will be positionned further from the hydraulic mount.

Drivers side:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Passenger side:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Passenger side "S" Bent (the glossy paint make it look uglier...)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Pedro
1989 vanagon Karmann Gipsy #652, TDI AFN
1991 vanagon westfalia conversion TDI ALH Silverfox
ex-1989 vanagon syncro passenger Syncrofox (Sold)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=598791&highlight=
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=493964&highlight=speed+aap+trans
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=496589&highlight=carrier+bars
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=506025
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like it should work fine. I uploaded the picture of the r/s reindexed carrier bar to clear the AC compressor. The tab going down is a reinforcement to my trailer hitch and can be ignored. Thanks for the update. Are you going to add the cross brace? mark

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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1990 Vanagon Camper project Syncro conversion.
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91Transporter16"
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very cool Pedro.
Looks strong and it should work well.
Here is a design I did that will work with the another Audi mount.
Tony
TSI Engineering
vwsyncrocarrierbars.com
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony, I like how you supported the mount around its perimeter. I think the mounts work better when the ears are used for securing more than supporting. Plenty running around sitting on the ears only, so it must work. I like your setup.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark

Yeah, it should work more than fine. I just wished the "S" bent would be nicer... I believe I'll gonna have to add the tork mount (you wrote cross brace? Is that the same?). There was some vibrations at the higher end of the RPM, and when pushing it a little harder. I need to go to a pick-n-pull scrapyard and look for some tork mount that fits my configuration. Thanks for the pics! Your plate is very large, and I think thats very good. I need to work and get better pictures of mine, cause its wider too (taken soon). I drove the van friday and sunday, and it was amazing! Always with a grin on my face... I did 8.5 L/100Km!

Hey Tony

Your mounts looks sooooo professionnal! Very nice work! And with hydraulic mounts now... Wow! Now i need to work on mine and make it look better! Smile))) We went with the hydraulic mount bolted underneath for ease to lower the engine when needed. I'll take more pictures later, most likely next weekend...
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Pedro
1989 vanagon Karmann Gipsy #652, TDI AFN
1991 vanagon westfalia conversion TDI ALH Silverfox
ex-1989 vanagon syncro passenger Syncrofox (Sold)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=598791&highlight=
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=493964&highlight=speed+aap+trans
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=496589&highlight=carrier+bars
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=506025
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pedro, the early diesel bars with bushings at both ends should have had a flat bar that ran from side to side under the oil pan to connect the bars together mid point. The later bars were solid mounted to the van and did not have the cross bar. I have read accounts online of owners trying to solve vibration on their diesels and the cross bar seems to be a part of the adjustment. It was a flat bar, so not much strength in it, but it would connect the two bars in the center effectively stiffening them.

On version 2, I made a round bar with heims joints that could be easily adjusted. I used cheap heims, and the bar eventually started to make noise. Version 3 I made something fixed from round tube. Here is a picture of the left side.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


and right side.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


For a torque mount, I used a VW rabbit/scirocco front mount. I believe that made the most improvement in the high rpm vibration during upshifts. Without it the engine moves up and down quite a bit and the shift rod loads and transfers the resonance forward. Mine is tied to the trailer hitch. I do believe a torque mount helps. Even a simple dogbone if you can find a way to attach it. mark

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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