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67Beetle2017
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matthew wrote:
Good "outside the box" build Darth. That's the type I have in mind. Thanks for adding one; you went into great detail there too.

Here's another with an old school theme:

1835
German AS41 good used case
69 mm welded c/w crank 8 dowel spg pattern
311 B rods
92 mm AA thick wall p&c set
Engle 125 cam
311 DP heads welded and ported w/ 40 x 35.5 stainless valves
1 1/2" merged header with dual qp mufflers
Italian 48 IDAs 37 mm vents
German stale air 40 shroud w/ small diameter generator
Santana degree pulley
Full flow w/ external cooler and filter under car

Put in in 60's beetle w/ close gears


My brother and I built this combination back in 1982 and put it in our 1967 bug. The only difference in the above combination was that we used 10.3:1 compression 92mm NPR pistons and liners and a Norris 407S (which is similar to an Engle W125). The combination put down 138 RWHP.

Transmission had a 4:12R&P 1.48 3rd and 1.04 4th. The combination was very strong in the midrange from about 2500 rpm to 5200rpm.
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Matthew
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting that, 67Beetle. That is a good RWHP number from a NA 1835. I am surprised the power band wasn't further up the scale. I would have guessed power up to 6500 rpm.
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Rome
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Building a really strong 1600 and coming anywhere close (-20hp) to the Porsche Salzburg rally Super Beetle engine from the early 70's. This 130hp engine has been recreated and even improved upon by the German engine builder RMB. RMB used it not only in a re-creation of that rally Beetle, but for another one:

http://www.rbernauer.de/

The German text for the engine is here; my translation (in red) follows-
VW1302 S, Motor Typ1, 1584 ccm , Gehäuse innen poliert, geschmiedete 69 Kurbelwelle,
Schmiede-Kolben mit Ventiltaschen, Nockenwelle 328 ° , Zylinderköpfe komplett umgebaut:
Einlaß 40 mm, Auslaß 35,5 mm, Verdichtung 11:1, Weber 48 IDF, Auspuff 1´ 5/8 Drag-Race,
Leistung: 147 PS / 6430min.

1972 Super Beetle type 1 engine, 1584cc, case interior polished, forged 69mm crankshaft, forged pistons with valve relief pockets, 328 degree duration camshaft, completely reconstructed cylinder heads: 40mm intake, 35.5mm exhaust, compression ratio 11:1, Weber 48IDF, 1 5/8" drag race exhaust. Output- 147hp @ 6430 rpm.

Here's a video of either this same engine, or the similar one built for the Salzburg replica Beetle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu1iRyhIJ_c

Seems like an engine which Alstrup would try!

So let's see- what do I have in the basement- a NOS case, CW 69mm crank, new 044 heads (40x35), Engle 125 cam, Dell'Orto 45's and 48's, and an exhaust that's at least 1 1/2"...
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Matthew
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Full tilt 1600's are cool too.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1978cc engine = 61x101.6, with jpm Ms230 heads, ultralight moving parts and valvetrain. 280hp track engine Laughing

2789cc engine: 86x101.6, all t4 mains flanged crank, nickies, fuel injection, 280hp street / strip / track engine

2595cc turbo engine: 86x98, wbx stud spacing custom nickies with extra wall thickness, fuel injected and intercooled with ball bearing turbo. +350hp
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Matthew
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joel Mohr wrote:
WELLLLL...I did my best on a 1600....offset ground stock crank to 72, 85.5 P&C (1654), 35 x 32 ported, hemi cut, detailed chambers, 6mm stems with Ford modular beehive springs, WEB 122 (.506 X 288) CB lifters, Smith AL pushrods, 1 3/8ths step header, 9 to 1, 44 idfs with 36mm vents, 6 lb crown flywheel, netted 114 hp, 106 torque...it's in my Puma, and just ran 14.60s at Sac BOR...it goes to 7,000 and revs like a 2 stroke. I LOVE driving that thing!! and no it's not a dog down low. It pulled 90 ft/lbs at 3,000...... And about 30 years ago, a friend of mine built what he called his DE-STROKER, 64 x 92 (1702) and it made 165hp, with IDAs on it and a K8....it CAN be done! HI Torben!


Nice job! Nothing off-the-shelf about that one.
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venomous-67
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just getting ready to build up my street motor.

CB ali race case.
Scat 88mm, all T4 mains with wedge mated chromoly Flywheel.
94mm Custom JE Pistons with Jaycee longer cylinders.
Scat 5.7 Chevy journal rods.
Custom JPM Camshaft with steel straight cut gears.
13.5:1 compression ratio.
JPM MS230 Heads.
48IDA Jenvey twin Throttle bodies with Ported CB comp elim manifolds.
Dry sump sized Crank trigger pulley ignition system.
Omex ECU.
MSD Ford type coil pack with 10mm Magnacore custom leads.
Dry sump setup.
Custom header with 3" magnaflow muffler.
Looking forward Very Happy
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venomous-67
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

venomous-67 wrote:
Just getting ready to build up my street motor.

CB ali race case.
Scat 88mm, all T4 mains with wedge mated chromoly Flywheel.
94mm Custom JE Pistons with Jaycee longer cylinders.
Scat 5.7 Chevy journal rods.
Custom JPM Camshaft with steel straight cut gears.
13.5:1 compression ratio.
JPM MS230 Heads.
48IDA Jenvey twin Throttle bodies with Ported CB comp elim manifolds.
Dry sump sized Crank trigger pulley ignition system.
Omex ECU.
MSD Ford type coil pack with 10mm Magnacore custom leads.
Dry sump setup.
Custom header with 3" magnaflow muffler.
Looking forward Very Happy


It changed! 90mm stroke x 4" bore.
MS250 Heads.
Custom Raptor Camshaft
Etc!
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Matthew
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

venomous-67 wrote:
venomous-67 wrote:
Just getting ready to build up my street motor.

CB ali race case.
Scat 88mm, all T4 mains with wedge mated chromoly Flywheel.
94mm Custom JE Pistons with Jaycee longer cylinders.
Scat 5.7 Chevy journal rods.
Custom JPM Camshaft with steel straight cut gears.
13.5:1 compression ratio.
JPM MS230 Heads.
48IDA Jenvey twin Throttle bodies with Ported CB comp elim manifolds.
Dry sump sized Crank trigger pulley ignition system.
Omex ECU.
MSD Ford type coil pack with 10mm Magnacore custom leads.
Dry sump setup.
Custom header with 3" magnaflow muffler.
Looking forward Very Happy


It changed! 90mm stroke x 4" bore.
MS250 Heads.
Custom Raptor Camshaft
Etc!

Keep us updated!
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Just for Fun Engine Combinations Thread Reply with quote

Here is an interesting one that actually exists:

One of the oldest HiPo VW motors that I have ever seen:

I got a chance to freshen up a really old road racing motor.
I knew it was something special when it came to me.
Had a 6-volt generator that was gutted.
16 blade fan. (before the days of power pulleys).
I remember reading about this in the "how to hotrod VW motors" book.
I wouldn't be suprised if it was the exact same motor in the book.

Solex 40-P11's on an old set of "Gene's Services" intake manifolds. (Before Gene Berg Ent).

Stock ported heads with stock valve springs shimmed up. Tons of flycutting. First fin removed.
Stock rockers with the springs removed and shimmed, and safety wired clips.

82mm stroke SPG crank with stock 85.5mm pistons (lots of shims). (before the days of bigger bore pistons). 85.5 WAS big bore.

Crazy Crower cam with 314deg duration and just under .400" lift at the valve. Very soft ramp cam. Quiet as a mouse.


This motor basically represented what could be done with the limited parts available back then.

Amazing how well it runs.
You have to keep the idle rpm above 1500 at all times to keep the rods oiled. But it was/is a very snappy motor.

I was surprised at how well long duration cam worked with such small heads.
It didn't act like a big cam motor at all.
Would rev to 6,000rpm with out even trying.

This motor still exists and is piece of history.
I was proud to get to work on it and keep it alive.

All of it's original patina was kept. Nothing changed and sits as a collector piece currently.

if ever the owner/friend ever wants to sell it, he knows to call me first.....
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theastronaut
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Just for Fun Engine Combinations Thread Reply with quote

Rough ideas for my 1679 when I go back through it...

Keep the 69mm DPR couterweighted crank
94mm Super Squish Pistons, B-pin height because I already have them.
Long rods for better rod angle.
CB Super Pro heads.
Really light valvetrain.
All the compression.
All the camshaft (at the cost of losing some of the SS piston dome)
IDA's


'64 Bug with 4.37 R&P trans.


Shift at 8500 rpm? 9000 rpm? 9500 rpm? or wherever Super Pro heads run out of breath on a 1914...
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Lingwendil
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:54 am    Post subject: Re: Just for Fun Engine Combinations Thread Reply with quote

How about this conservative build idea?

1848cc simple stomper for a reliable, strong engine that will turn a few heads.

CB Performance 69.5mm crank
lightened flywheel, or stock if you prefer
92mm thickwall cylinders
Steve Tims ported 37x32 Super Stock heads
8.5-9 compression
stock heater boxes
merged header with hideway style muffler arrangement.
Web 163 cam
Scat lifters
Stock rods
Stock pushrods adjusted to length
stock rockers
8mm stud AS41 case
40IDF clones on offset manifolds
CSP or Berg linkage
Stock tin all around

Reuses lots of quality OEM parts, so you can put the extra money into some nicer new parts where you need them. The extra stroke that the 69.5mm crank provides will let you precisely dial in the deck for a nice tight burn, and the displacement will have people scratching their heads to do the math Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Just for Fun Engine Combinations Thread Reply with quote

You should deck the case anyway to get full surface for the barrels. Also, the 0,5 mm extra stroke will not make up for perfect deck with the 92A´s. I would deck the case approx 0,060" for good surface and then shim the barrel´s what´s needed. Most likely about 0,030"
With a 1½" true merge header it can be rather powerfull. I would even recommend 1,25/1,3 rockers on it. If you get the heads done well for the engine, and adjust the venturies for what the engine wants, you have a potential 130 hp engine. (You will have to skip the stock pushrods if you do the 1,25´s though, and use something like Oteva S75 250 springs, or similar)

On a second note, it was quite fun to see what I and others wrote some 9 years ago. It clearly shows that we have come quite some way since then. I guess the countless hours on the dyno and in the shop trying to understand how, where, when and what has paid off after all. Salzburg style rally engines are now around 160 hp still within the rule book. Nippy street 1600´s are in the 110 to 120 hp range today. - Not that many of those are getting built around here at least.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Just for Fun Engine Combinations Thread Reply with quote

Alstrup wrote:
You should deck the case anyway to get full surface for the barrels. Also, the 0,5 mm extra stroke will not make up for perfect deck with the 92A´s. I would deck the case approx 0,060" for good surface and then shim the barrel´s what´s needed. Most likely about 0,030"
With a 1½" true merge header it can be rather powerfull. I would even recommend 1,25/1,3 rockers on it. If you get the heads done well for the engine, and adjust the venturies for what the engine wants, you have a potential 130 hp engine. (You will have to skip the stock pushrods if you do the 1,25´s though, and use something like Oteva S75 250 springs, or similar)


I have an AS41 block (former 1776 that came down for head issues, it was running in my car when i bought it) put away that needs to be cleaned, checked out and see if it is good to go for a line bore and usable. It's already full flowed and cut for 90.5 bore, and decked about .5~.75mm or so. One of these days I need to bring it by the machine shop (Jansen Enterprises in Belmont, great guys) to check it out. If it's good to go I'll have them skim the deck further and line bore it. If I'm not mistaken it's the original engine block for my car.

Maybe I should set it as my back-burner project? Would be a helluva engine once dialed in. 1848cc has a nice ring to it. Grab parts here and there and keep an eye out for carbs. Smile

Quote:
On a second note, it was quite fun to see what I and others wrote some 9 years ago. It clearly shows that we have come quite some way since then. I guess the countless hours on the dyno and in the shop trying to understand how, where, when and what has paid off after all. Salzburg style rally engines are now around 160 hp still within the rule book. Nippy street 1600´s are in the 110 to 120 hp range today. - Not that many of those are getting built around here at least.


The Salzburg cars are what got me into beetles, and specifically embraced supers. Cool

Looking back I see a lot more than I used to on here in recent years trending towards more mild combos that actually put out more power and torque than you usually see. It really is interesting to see the difference between the slapped together 1835/1915, etc engines with 110 cams, 40x35 heads, 1-1/2~1-5/8"exhausts that barely make 80 horses getting spanked by 100 horse 1600 engines that have been dialed in and thoughtfully arranged.

Personally I found that between you, Modok, Blackline Racing, Jake Raby, and Brian Errea my outlook on these engines overall is entirely different than it was when I first got into these cars. I look at things with a different eye, and your thoughtful explanations have really helped me understand, and use as a lead into looking further into things than I would ever have before.

Specifically, between you and Brian consulting on my humble 1776 I now have an engine that has absolutely gone above and beyond my expectations already, even if it still isn't perfect. If I had followed the advice of all the other guys local I'd be running 40x35 heads, 110 cam, and ICTs with a shitty single quiet pack, 7-1compression, and making 35% less power for 50 degrees hotter oil. Laughing


I'm still learning every day, but I like to think I have much better opinions than I used to thanks to this site and some real info from all the thoughtful builders.
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Matthew
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:29 am    Post subject: Re: Just for Fun Engine Combinations Thread Reply with quote

Ohio Tom wrote:
Here is an interesting one that actually exists:

One of the oldest HiPo VW motors that I have ever seen:

I got a chance to freshen up a really old road racing motor.
I knew it was something special when it came to me.
Had a 6-volt generator that was gutted.
16 blade fan. (before the days of power pulleys).
I remember reading about this in the "how to hotrod VW motors" book.
I wouldn't be suprised if it was the exact same motor in the book.

Solex 40-P11's on an old set of "Gene's Services" intake manifolds. (Before Gene Berg Ent).

Stock ported heads with stock valve springs shimmed up. Tons of flycutting. First fin removed.
Stock rockers with the springs removed and shimmed, and safety wired clips.

82mm stroke SPG crank with stock 85.5mm pistons (lots of shims). (before the days of bigger bore pistons). 85.5 WAS big bore.

Crazy Crower cam with 314deg duration and just under .400" lift at the valve. Very soft ramp cam. Quiet as a mouse.


This motor basically represented what could be done with the limited parts available back then.

Amazing how well it runs.
You have to keep the idle rpm above 1500 at all times to keep the rods oiled. But it was/is a very snappy motor.

I was surprised at how well long duration cam worked with such small heads.
It didn't act like a big cam motor at all.
Would rev to 6,000rpm with out even trying.

This motor still exists and is piece of history.
I was proud to get to work on it and keep it alive.

All of it's original patina was kept. Nothing changed and sits as a collector piece currently.

if ever the owner/friend ever wants to sell it, he knows to call me first.....
Wow! I'm sorry that I missed this one when it was posted. I blame the craziness of 2020. Anyway, that is certainly different. Sounds really cool. I have noticed that many of the 60's and early 70's cams didn't have much lift but were available in really long durations.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:26 am    Post subject: Re: Just for Fun Engine Combinations Thread Reply with quote

Here's an idea, from the oversized 34PICT3 thread-

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=747896

Low end torque what you want? Certified stump puller? Enough torque to idle your way up a telephone pole?

High lift, low duration cam, larger bore, with a bit of stroke.

Let's say, here's what I would look to as a starting point, were I to build such an engine.

-Ported 35x32 heads, or some decent 37x32 heads, like the superstocks from Steve tims, or similar froom mofoco. Intakes only, leave the exhaust alone.
-CB2280 or similar cam, tractor torque, high RPM be damned. I'm sure there are betters,this is just the first to come to mind.
-8-1 compression or so maybe a bit higher, change to accommodate cam as needed.
-74 stroke, cast crank is fine I suppose, but counterweighted would be nice.
-stock weight flywheel
-90.5 bore, matched for weight
-stock rockers, solid shaft and shims
-stock rods, matched for weight
-ported stock dual port endcastings, high flow center section from CB
-oversized 34PICT-3 carb, enlarged venturi, enlarged throttle bore.
-stock heater boxes
-header type exhaust, modified for proper heat riser crossflow. Muffler of your choice, I say hideaway as I personally think quiet paks are hideous.
-ignition depends on carb modifiactions- if you manage to make the advance signal work, use an OEM german SVDA. Modified as needed for 10 initial, 30 all in perhaps?
-OEM Oil bath aircleaner, gutted and set up to use a modern element filter. Snout cut off, and enlarged. Inlet flared slightly at snorkel. All functional preheat system intact.
-Stock preheat fittings and tin, OEM doghouse shroud.

Should make for a relatively affordable, strong engine that reuses many quality, OEM german parts that often are cheap or free. The larger bore adds room to breath around the valves, and gives a healthy bump in displacement. The longer stroke adds torque, and really helps to suck the fuel through the carb with some force. 1904cc displacement uses the stock supporting parts to about the maximum available without too much extra work.
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73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!

Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884

Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087!
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