| Author |
Message |
crvc
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2004
Posts: 1308
|
 Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:50 am Post subject: Thermostat bracket question |
 |
|
The connecting rod has 3/4 inch of travel. The bracket only lets the thermostat enlarge a few milimeters. Should I cut the top of the bracket off?
crvc |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
ejonn
Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2011
Posts: 348
Location: Middle of California
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
http://www.vw-resource.com/thermostat.html
I think your supposed to have a different bracket with that type of thermostat. And from what i have read, thats a bad type to have....fails in the closed position.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wayne1230cars
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2010
Posts: 2685
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC%2D043%2D119%2D159 Thermostats are not cheap anymore.  I am big fan of them although I do prefer the original style. I also wonder about your bracket. This CIP1 listing shows this thermostat as fitting 62 -79. The link posted by ejonn mentions a different bracket being necessary. I am not sure of the differences. Here is an original 36 hp bracket from a 1960 beetle. Note the bracket measurement of 48 mm, thermostat measurement of 35 mm and thus the actual travel or expansion of thermostat being about 13 mm. I know that is different than the bracket you show. I am not sure how much travel your style should have.[img][/img]
_________________
1960 beetle
1970 beetle convertible |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wayne1230cars
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2010
Posts: 2685
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
It is possible that you may be able to modify this bracket to use with this style thermostat. As the CIP1 link mentions, you will have to drill a locating hole in the bracket to prevent the thermostat from rotating and jamming. Then you will have to enlarge the horseshoe slot in the bracket so that the top of the spring will clear it on both sides. Perhaps someone else who has used this style thermostat can chime in here and give an opinion as to whether this idea will work or not. Of course your other option is find a good used original thermostat. I do recognize the cost factor though.
_________________
1960 beetle
1970 beetle convertible |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wayne1230cars
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2010
Posts: 2685
Location: Canada
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
crvc
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2004
Posts: 1308
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tasb
The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 6371
Location: Pentwater, Michigan
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The above picture is the correct way to modify the bracket which must be done to allow enough travel for the thermostat to travel. The later type thermosstat does not need the upper support like the earlier version does.
_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aynthm
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2010
Posts: 1315
Location: Beaverton, Oregon
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
My bracket came with the kit I bought from Awesome powdercoat.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mark's 68
Samba Member
Joined: July 04, 2011
Posts: 79
Location: Calgary AB
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| As long as you are not driving in extremely cold weather and original bellows thermostats cannot be found, I would not entertain the idea of installing a Mexican thermostat. It is equivilant to driving around with a ticking time bomb. By the time you realize it has failed closed you will have done some serious damage to your engine. I do understand the benefits of having an operational thermostat but these benefits do not outweigh the risk of not having a fail safe system like the original design. I think the consequences of driving in a warm climate without a functioning thermostat have been greatly exaggerated. Remember, aircooled 911s do not have a thermostat and flaps. Late model aircooled Mexican beetles did away with them as well. Unless somebody makes a fail safe thermostat that will work in our cars we will have to decide what is better living with the consequences of a longer warmup or cooking an engine with a non fail safe system. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wayne1230cars
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2010
Posts: 2685
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
Aynthm mentions Awesome Powder Coating. This is not ad for their company but they do have a very nicely designed web page that explains thermostat operation and the difference between the original German and the Mexican. I found it very helpful and the best objective analysis of the thermostat question that I have come across.
| Quote: |
Can the thermostat get stuck closed, causing the engine to overheat?The German thermostats are fail safe, meaning that if they fail, they SHOULD fail in the full open
position, giving you maximum cooling. I have seen 100's of thermostats over the years, and I
have only seen a 2 that where contracted that did not expand when heated. So it is possible, but
it is not very likely.
The VW Mexico version of the thermostat is NOT fail safe, meaning that if the wax inside leaks
out, it will stay fully closed. However, I have never actually seen a failed thermostat of this style,
nor have I heard of any of them failing, so it must not be very common.
How does the thermostat work anyway?The German units have a small amount of liquid inside that expands when heated. The bellows
are held closed by the partial vacuum inside the sealed unit. As the stat is heated, the liquid
vaporizes and the bellows expands. When the stat cools off, the vapor returns to liquid and the
bellows contracts. If the liquid ever leaks out, the bellows will expand, causing the flaps to go full
open. This is why the German stat is considered fail safe.
The Mexican units have a small amount of wax inside that expands when heated. The unit is held
closed due to a large high tension spring. As the stat heats up, the wax expands, extending the
stat. When the stat cools off, the was is compressed by the high tension spring. If the wax ever
leaks out, the stat will stay in the closed position. This is why the Mexican stat is NOT considered
fail safe. I guess you would call that fail unsafe.
|
_________________
1960 beetle
1970 beetle convertible |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mark's 68
Samba Member
Joined: July 04, 2011
Posts: 79
Location: Calgary AB
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Very interesting, one way I could see a German unit fail would be if it sat for a long time in a damp corrosive environment and the pleats became fused in the closed position? I would also bet that there is probably not much useful data on the Mexican style thermostat as there simply are not many being used? It is my understanding that the Mexican beetles went from the bellows style to none at all. The Mexican thermostats work on the same principal as a liquid cooled thermostat. It is not uncommon for these to eventually leak with age and use. I understand that a properly working thermostat and flaps is optimal however I believe that substituting a wax type unit is asking for trouble. In a water cooled car if the thermostat fails closed, you have a water temp gauge and/or other engine warning lights to let you know you have a problem before any damage occurs. With our cars by the time you notice a cooling problem the damage has already been done. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wayne1230cars
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2010
Posts: 2685
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| I would also bet that there is probably not much useful data on the Mexican style thermostat as there simply are not many being used? |
Mark's 68 makes a good point here. I would think that the great majority of thermostats still being used would be the German type. Therefore it might be somewhat difficult to accurately assess how trouble free the Mexican style are or will be after prolonged use. My 1960 has what is likely an original thermostat and it works perfectly. That is a testament to the design and quality of the part. I certainly recognize that they can fail. I am not sure that when VW was designing and manufacturing these cars half a century ago, that they thought that their owners would still be driving and maintaining them in 2012.
_________________
1960 beetle
1970 beetle convertible |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tasb
The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 6371
Location: Pentwater, Michigan
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Let's not forget that little spring that holds tension on the cross bar? If the stat fails even the new Mexican design; wouldn't that spring pull the flaps open?
_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mark's 68
Samba Member
Joined: July 04, 2011
Posts: 79
Location: Calgary AB
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Straight from Rob & Dave's Aircooled VW Pages
"The return spring is mainly an anti-rattle spring"
The linkage spring keeps a small amount of tension against the thermostat when in the closed position. It is relatively weak and would be unable to stop the flaps from closing if a thermostat were to fail in the closed position. The fail safe design comes from the bellows being held closed under vacuum. If the bellows is compromised it is under tension to spring to the open position. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17285
Location: Left coast, Canada
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mark's 68 wrote: |
| .... the Mexican style thermostat ..... The Mexican thermostats . |
Everyone should stop referring to it as a "Mexican" style. That thermostat isn't made in Mexico, you can't buy it in Mexico, it was never installed on Mexican Beetles.
It is an aftermarket part from BRAZIL!
The only thermostat installed by VW of Mexico was the German type bellows thermostat.
_________________
| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mark's 68
Samba Member
Joined: July 04, 2011
Posts: 79
Location: Calgary AB
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Just looked at cip's site and these VW of Mexico "new style" thermostats are no longer being made and once the short supply is gone that will be it? I can't but think the reason that VW of Mexico never installed them on their late model beetles was due to the fact they fail closed? When there are no more thermostats available for our aircooled cars (German or VW of Mexico) we may have no choice but to run without? As long as you are not doing only short trips in very cold weather I don't think it will have any significant consequences. If it was such a big deal I am sure VW of Mexico would not have deleted them all together? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17285
Location: Left coast, Canada
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Mark's 68 wrote: |
| Just looked at cip's site and these VW of Mexico "new style" thermostats are no longer being made |
Again, this part is NOT from VW of Mexico. That is just CIP making incorrect assumptions
_________________
| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tasb
The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 6371
Location: Pentwater, Michigan
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Can't disagree more. The thermostat makes a very significant difference in the way my engine performs when it is cold.
_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GARRICK.CLARK
Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2012
Posts: 1267
Location: Lancashire UK
|
| Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 9:55 am Post subject: Re: Thermostat bracket question |
|
|
| I've just fit one of these new Mexico thermostats . Not difficult really. I did pull the bracket that bolts to the case down to close the flaps and retighten the nut. The heat now should open the thermostat which opens the flaps. Test it tomorrow. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GARRICK.CLARK
Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2012
Posts: 1267
Location: Lancashire UK
|
| Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: Thermostat bracket question |
|
|
Looks like I need To ELONGATE the bracket that bolts to the case as the flaps are still in the open position when cold. Or do I just leave it as is, I've read these repo thermostats are utter crap and hold the flaps closed when they fail. I'd be wise to set it half open from the get go I think
Last edited by GARRICK.CLARK on Mon May 11, 2020 1:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
