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spiggs
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2010
Posts: 36
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 Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Jake Raby wrote: |
Todd, that's the numbers that needed to be posted. Keep in mind that the engine is no where near the end of it's application at Subaru.
Suby crankcases can be bought brand new today for engines that were built in 1994 and from the dealership. You can have one in your hands in 3 days for less than the cost of a Brazilian replacement type 1 case that more than likely will need every dimension corrected before assembly.
And the dealership delivers it to your door for free... |
Did not realize that the Subaru engine has remained relatively the same over its lifetime and was sold in so many numbers. It seems here in the US the Subaru is popular but still not sold in the numbers of many other marks. Of course I do have one in my driveway.
I have known a few people to do engine swaps in classic sports cars and then find years later that the engine they swapped in is no longer well supported and hard to source parts for. While the engine that originally came in the car still has a strong following. |
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Jake Raby
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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Suby populations are highest in the pacific northwest and the northeast due to the AWD systems in the vehicles being so effective.
The Subaru performance market dwarfs that of the ACVW.
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16849
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| Jake Raby wrote: |
| As for offering "kits"... I am being a little selfish these days... |
totally understand. truth be told, i work for volvo in a area where every 2nd car is a volvo. i stopped wearing my uniform about 8 years ago. it was like being a rock star just trying to buy gas. everybody pumping you for free info that they in turn would go and try to fix something at home, fuck it up so bad then blast you when the car got towed in....
i hated to do it, but i now have a attitude that most would say sucks. i have become pretty unapproachable because i too got tired of trying to save the world. i can relate to your my way or the highway attitude.
keep up the good work
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Jake Raby
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:17 am Post subject: |
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The biggest mistake that can be made is trying to make everyone happy.
I'll not make the same mistakes twice. I had a hell of a lot more fun here when we only sold aircooled turn key solutions.. Adding kits, parts and support just plain sucked.
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16849
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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yup. everyone is your best friend, buddy or brah till something goes wrong.
i wouldn't want to deal with joe public either.
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Heliconman
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2008
Posts: 283
Location: Minnetonka, MN
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| JSMskater wrote: |
Jake -- I really REALLY hope you help out the hobby, and not just the people with deep enough pockets, by selling some of the kits critical components separately for the home brew conversion. If you want me to sign away my "right" to sue you into oblivion by all means show me the paper work. I don't have the time or energy or money to go around ambulance chasing. |
Helping hobbies is not what puts food on the table. This is nothing against Jake either because he has a business to run. I would have loved to have bought one of his Camper Special kits when he was offering them. I would also happily someday buy a kit to convert my bus to a subaru or to buy parts from him to do the conversion myself. I know that he will not offer this stuff until all his high end clients are gone. I am just going to enjoy the bus I have and maybe someday the technology will be offered to the working class as well.
The good news is Jake is not the only one out there doing these. Subagon is working on a bay conversion. The cost will eventually come down if there is enough demand. I can only guess what this first "Touring Special" is costing but I will bet that it is higher than most people are willing to pay to install a modern engine in an old unsafe and unpractical yet very cool vehicle.
I am still happy to see this project and wish Jake and his customers all the best. |
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tootype2crazy
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2007
Posts: 1276
Location: St. Louis Missouri
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Heliconman wrote: |
an old unsafe and unpractical yet very cool vehicle.
. |
The bus is not that unsafe. I've been in 3 quite serious wrecks in buses and was never hurt even a little. Impractical, I think not. Lets see modern cars on the road 30 or 40 years from now still running. Not gonna happen. I think acvws are some of the most practical vehicles around. BMWs, Lexuses, etc - those are impractical.
_________________
air-cooled or nothing for me
1978 Sunroof Deluxe Bus (daily driver)
1978 Transporter (mom's, making into a camper)
1970 Single Cab 2.1 turbo/EFI 6 Rib, 78 front beam, vanagon backing plates on rear (project)
2001 GTI VR6 (wife's) |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16849
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:59 am Post subject: |
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| tootype2crazy wrote: |
| . BMWs, Lexuses, etc - those are impractical. |
the electronics will be the cost prohibiting factor. last week, we had a customer walk away from a 06 XC90 because it needed 2K worth of control modules and a brake job. car only has 80K on it too.
unless the aftermarket gears up, or car mfgr's let loose the information to reprogram used contol units, cars of today are doomed.
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5362
Location: Murrieta California
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| Heliconman wrote: |
Helping hobbies is not what puts food on the table. |
Sorry, but that Randian mentality doesn't work on me. To me, there's nothing inherently more difficult to sell 100 widgets of which I'm already making 1000 that are earmarked for a larger kit. you just make 1100 instead. Slap on a 15% (or more if you're feeling like having GOOD food on that nice oaken table) markup and sell the thing. You don't need another person to handle that. the phone orders are the same. I'm sure you can find the energy to clean out a cluttered corner of your warehouse to *gasp* store them before they're sold.
Look -- I understand not wanting to deal with people, and even worse, the proles who turn around and blame you for their failed starry eyed hackjob dreams -- I can actually respect the honesty there that you just don't want to deal with that fraction of the human populace, which is sadly growing larger every day.
But I will absolutely not tolerate this #corporatewhine line of bullshit that you can't make money that way. I can and do make money that way, as do many other companies. Don't disguise mild elitism with regards to your product -- earned or or not -- with some kind of economic necessity. the numbers and logic simply don't stack up that way. Now if you operate under the mentality that the most profit at all costs without regard to your larger impact on the world, is most important to you: then sure -- it doesn't put "bread" on your proverbial table.
at the end of the day it's just paper, and it'll all be worthless when you're gone.
_________________
71 Squareback-FI -- 73 Bay (subaru powered)
TOOB Member #3
I make D-jet FI connectors |
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Heliconman
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2008
Posts: 283
Location: Minnetonka, MN
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| tootype2crazy wrote: |
| Heliconman wrote: |
an old unsafe and unpractical yet very cool vehicle.
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The bus is not that unsafe. I've been in 3 quite serious wrecks in buses and was never hurt even a little. Impractical, I think not. Lets see modern cars on the road 30 or 40 years from now still running. Not gonna happen. I think acvws are some of the most practical vehicles around. BMWs, Lexuses, etc - those are impractical. |
What I was trying to say was at what point do the upgrades become not worth it. We love our bus and will never get rid of it. Here is a valid question. Lets say I spend X amount of $$$ doing the top of the line engine/trans swap and maybe have $30000 plus total investment and we are going on a trip and some person driving along texting while driving totals our Bus. Who is going to insure a bus to that amount of $$$?
The cost of some of these bus upgrades could put us into a mid 70's to 80's 30ft airstream with a nice used Diesel tow vehicle. I am not exclusively talking about one business here. Look at some of the Subagon syncro campers or the Gowesty ones. $70000? Just not for me. I will stick to a stock rebuild for our bus and do it myself before I ever consider that.
Jake said it right when he said he cannot keep everyone happy. I am not unhappy with him and when the time comes for me to either overhaul/modify our bus I will offer to buy all the parts I need from him. That's because I do like what he does and want to be able to give some support to his business and keep him going. |
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JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5362
Location: Murrieta California
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| Heliconman wrote: |
What I was trying to say was at what point do the upgrades become not worth it. We love our bus and will never get rid of it. Here is a valid question. Lets say I spend X amount of $$$ doing the top of the line engine/trans swap and maybe have $30000 plus total investment and we are going on a trip and some person driving along texting while driving totals our Bus. Who is going to insure a bus to that amount of $$$? |
It's called classic car insurance. Many insurance companies will negotiate a predetermined agreed upon value in the event of such a situation. Of course, it costs more. And of course, if you've got the 30k plus to sink into your bus, it would be stupid of you not to pay for the insurance.
That said, it is PRECISELY this situation that makes me advocate for offering just pieces -- offering the whole thing as a kit FORCES bus owners to get into this category, dropping 10-20k on their bus and then that necessitates the extra insurance, whatever. you can buy the adapter for 475, an exhaust for 300-500 (if it was offered), and a hangar support bar for 100-250 (again if it was offered) (by far, the 3 most complicated pieces for just getting the motor into the car, and arguably the easiest to manufacture and sell) and you're only 1000 or so in. Buy a motor for another 750, do the work yourself, and you're in for a FRACTION of the cost and you can keep insuring the car for whatever you're paying now!
| Quote: |
| The cost of some of these bus upgrades could put us into a mid 70's to 80's 30ft airstream with a nice used Diesel tow vehicle. I am not exclusively talking about one business here. Look at some of the Subagon syncro campers or the Gowesty ones. $70000? Just not for me. I will stick to a stock rebuild for our bus and do it myself before I ever consider that. |
Right. if you pay for someone else to do it, which you're basically forced to since you cannot buy the few conversion adapter pieces to do the rest yourself. again, you only prove my point.
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| Jake said it right when he said he cannot keep everyone happy. |
He certainly did. He can't, or won't but his loss will be someone else's gain: my guess is it won't be long before someone decides to design and sell just the hangar and exhaust for the hobby, and then conversions will be far cheaper. However my point since the beginning is Raby is ALREADY in the position to just sell the parts, make his cash, and buy some Trader Joe's bread.  like I said, when another smaller outfit, (or god forbid someone in China) decides to make and sell their own well that's automatic market loss on a product you already could've sold.
_________________
71 Squareback-FI -- 73 Bay (subaru powered)
TOOB Member #3
I make D-jet FI connectors |
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Javyd
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2010
Posts: 62
Location: Northern Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:15 am Post subject: |
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Sure it would be nice to have a kit... Can we get on with the build and off with all of this drama! 
MORE PICS! MORE PICS! MORE PICS! |
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Jake Raby
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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You don't quite understand.. My life of working with these engines isn't and hasn't ever been about profit. We live very simply, all I spend money on is my cars and firearms. For those of you that haven't ever suffered from owning your own company, you can't see that the most expensive product is often the one that costs the most at retail.
I started this company at the age of 13 in a barn with a dirt floor where I had 4 of the biggest hogs in the county to watch me while I worked. There was no power, just an extension cord that ran 320' to my parent's house. Today we still operate on that same property and one of our buildings is built on the foundation of that old barn.
I consider profit the product that we can create, provide to an appreciative purchaser and then not continuing to require support. The "profit" that comes with a turnkey engine package like we are providing to Ken is LESS than we can net from parts sales or kit sales, BUT both of those require a ton of after sale support that I personally have no tolerance for any longer.
Last year when baby Ava was born I worked to omit anything from our product offerings that was a pain in the ass to deal with- No matter how much we profited from it. The first thing to go was TIV engine kits. This year I am much happier, doing new things, developing the suby stuff and doing more and more modern Porsche development.
Put simply- The things that started making "this a job" were eliminated and won't ever return. Nothing has been a bigger drag than selling parts, kits and etc that are out of our care and control when they leave our loading dock, but we are still expected to support them for what some believe should be forever.
Though others may be able to develop a kit to install a Suby engine into a Bus, the thing they lack is the ability to enhance the internals of the engine to be best suited in a 2 ton Bus application. My primary objective isn't installing these engines into VWs, it is more based on optimizing the internal combinations of these engines to be best suited in an ACVW application. What we bring to the scene is one company who develops the components, develops the combinations, creates the sub-systems and then makes all that work seamlessly into the vehicle all on one particular site.
I'd be perfectly happy developing the products and allowing someone else to sell them, the requirement would be that I can work in my zone and NOBODY bothers me! I agree that there is a growing market for suby parts and that market would grow if the units were available for retail sale off the shelf. Thats just painful and no amount of profit is worth it, based on my experience with the modern day marketplace.
That probably doesn't make sense to any of you.
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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Heliconman
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2008
Posts: 283
Location: Minnetonka, MN
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Jake Raby wrote: |
That probably doesn't make sense to any of you. |
I get it Jake,
I know how tough it is running a business. Personally I don't care if you ever sell another kit. I would buy one and if I can I will buy parts from you. Looks like I will be doing a stock rebuild and keeping it air cooled. Would love a set of CS heads and cam but if not I will buy stock stuff elsewhere.
I would still love to attend one of your classes someday if you still do them. |
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marekv8
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 276
Location: Louisiana
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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Makes perfect sense to me Jake. Carry on, please.
Regards, Dave |
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Jake Raby
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I would still love to attend one of your classes someday if you still do them. |
My curriculum was accepted by the Worldpac Training Institute. Now I travel all over the US & Canada teaching the classes. Next one is in San Rafael California, but its on modern Porsche engines.
Details here for the class in July in Cambridge Massachusetts
http://www.worldpac.com/training/classes/fliers/SEM824.pdf
I only have my classes here once a year, this year it will be in December.
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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tootype2crazy
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2007
Posts: 1276
Location: St. Louis Missouri
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Stuartzickefoose
Samba Post Whore
Joined: February 07, 2008
Posts: 10350
Location: SoCal for now...
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:21 am Post subject: |
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So if you had an outside source (subarugears for example) that you made the parts for, and sold them to, then subarugears sold the parts to the world as a kit, you would consider selling the parts separately? (although not personally?)
if it was with subarugears, you may be able to work out a trade deal...you sell them kits, and they give you transmissions sort of thing....
_________________
Stuart Zickefoose
2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual
206-841-7324
[email protected] |
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Jake Raby
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| Stuartzickefoose wrote: |
So if you had an outside source (subarugears for example) that you made the parts for, and sold them to, then subarugears sold the parts to the world as a kit, you would consider selling the parts separately? (although not personally?)
if it was with subarugears, you may be able to work out a trade deal...you sell them kits, and they give you transmissions sort of thing.... |
Yes, I love to build parts for the market, but I HATE to offer those parts directly. I have negotiations ongoing with a few product suppliers, BUT the issue is they'll sell my stuff long enough and then they'll see where more money can be made by farming it out to China.
In this scenario I introduce and promote the conversion, develop and expose the market to it and then they end up benefiting from my hard work with a Chinese version.
The major reason I opened up Suby development was so an engine could be produced that had ZERO Chinese parts in its composition.
It truly is a double edged sword. Hell, I might just retire early- no other way to keep from being disappointed with the industry or the consumers these days and NO ONE CAN BE TRUSTED.
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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airkooledchris
Samba Member
Joined: January 25, 2005
Posts: 2707
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| tootype2crazy wrote: |
So Jake, are you going to change your location to water-cooled conversion heaven now?  |
how about Debbie Downer research labs?
woe is me
| Quote: |
| manufacturers are disappointing, customers are disappointing, the industry as a whole is disappointing..... |
If someone is going to steal a design and farm it out to China, they'll do it weather they happened to be a distributor for the product at one time or not.
Knockoff's in an area when you *can't* buy a product as a single piece anyway - is just filling a market gap. See a need - fill a need, or someone else will. |
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