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Radius Rod connection on sub frame
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theDrew
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:38 am    Post subject: Radius Rod connection on sub frame Reply with quote

Hey guys,

I'm replacing my radius rods and bushings -- I pulled them off last night and the hole in the subframe is now more of an oval shape.

Just leave it be, or is there a fix that people do?

Thanks!
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are running stock Syncro suspension than it can be left alone.
Lifted vans need that area beefed up once it has ovaled out.
I weld rings on both sides of the subframe for strength.
If you do this, new bushing spacers must also be made with the added gap or alignment will be difficult to hold.

Good luck.
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theDrew
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I should have posted more info -- Its a 2wd, with the GW 1.5" lift springs in.

The previous rod was bent, so thats why I was replaceing it. I think the PO collided with something, so I finally got around to replacing it.

If i just leave it be, what will happen?

Thanks!
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GrindGarage
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had the same issue. Cut a peice of steel plate and used a 3/4 hole saw for hole. I weleded it up but you could probably sandwich it up there letting the rod and bushings hold it in place. I also reassembled them using lots of fluid film
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

insyncro wrote:
.....
I weld rings on both sides of the subframe for strength.
If you do this, new bushing spacers must also be made with the added gap or alignment will be difficult to hold.

Good luck.


I did this job. First time effort.

Likely I'm misunderstanding your post, but did I mess up? e.g. even though I only welded 1 plate on frame, should I have added a spacer? My thinking was that since the plate was relatively thin, (and I only welded on 1 plate) the rubber bushings once compressed would fill the added gap.

Neil.

what I did http://sites.google.com/site/tubaneil2/radiusarmholerepair via http://sites.google.com/site/tubaneil2/radiusarm

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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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GrindGarage
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

my fix looks like yours vanagonnut. I made the hole in the plate the same size as the metal bushing.
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theDrew
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh man. I'm not up to that fix. Too bad I just sold my welder!

Mine are not as bad as yours were -- but they're are definently not a perfect circle.

If i just leave it be, whats gonna happen?
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you add material to the frame...the same amount must be added to the bushing sleeve or you will not be able to torque down the bushings.
The movement will allow other suspension parts to prematurely wear.
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

insyncro wrote:
If you add material to the frame...the same amount must be added to the bushing sleeve or you will not be able to torque down the bushings.
The movement will allow other suspension parts to prematurely wear.


Thanks insyncro.

In doing rough measurements, had hoped that the thin metal I used would still allow the bushings to compress up against each other and "fill" the hole in frame.

GrindGarage: I think the hole in frame has to be the same size as the smaller portion of rubber bushings. e.g. the rod and metal sleeve all "ride" on the bushings which are compressed and held into the hole in frame. Or am I wrong? Think

AFAIK, my fix is still working, but at some point I may inspect.

thedrew: my guess is that the amount the hole is ovaled is directly related to how fast the new parts will wear. I guess I'm suggesting that the parts will wear faster than normal.

Neil.
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50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The issue is the length of the metal sleeve. The big washers get tightened against the rubber bushings by turning the big nuts closer together, until the metal washers hit against the ends of the metal sleeve. That sets the compression limit of the rubber bushings. If you make the plate where the hole is thicker then the rubbers gets smashed more than it they were supposed to, by the time the washers hit the sleeve. You would need to make the sleeves longer by the same amount you made the plate thicker by, in order to keep the rubbers at the same degree of compression.

Mark


Vanagon Nut wrote:
insyncro wrote:
If you add material to the frame...the same amount must be added to the bushing sleeve or you will not be able to torque down the bushings.
The movement will allow other suspension parts to prematurely wear.


Thanks insyncro.

In doing rough measurements, had hoped that the thin metal I used would still allow the bushings to compress up against each other and "fill" the hole in frame........
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:
The issue is the length of the metal sleeve. The big washers get tightened against the rubber bushings by turning the big nuts closer together, until the metal washers hit against the ends of the metal sleeve. That sets the compression limit of the rubber bushings. If you make the plate where the hole is thicker then the rubbers gets smashed more than it they were supposed to. You would need to make the sleeves longer by the same amount you made the plate thicker by, in order to keep the rubbers at the same degree of compression.

Mark


Vanagon Nut wrote:
insyncro wrote:
If you add material to the frame...the same amount must be added to the bushing sleeve .....


In doing rough measurements, had hoped that the thin metal I used would still allow the bushings to compress up against each other and "fill" the hole in frame.



Hey Mark. Thanks for explaining that. I obviously didn't "see" that.

So assuming I compressed the rubber bushings more than OEM spec, does this:

establish an incorrect torque at each nut?
affect how accurately the front end guy could adjust the castor?
over stress the rubber cause premature wear of bushings?

Apologies for this thread hijack!

Neil.
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50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

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insyncro
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:
The issue is the length of the metal sleeve. The big washers get tightened against the rubber bushings by turning the big nuts closer together, until the metal washers hit against the ends of the metal sleeve. That sets the compression limit of the rubber bushings. If you make the plate where the hole is thicker then the rubbers gets smashed more than it they were supposed to, by the time the washers hit the sleeve. You would need to make the sleeves longer by the same amount you made the plate thicker by, in order to keep the rubbers at the same degree of compression.

Mark


Vanagon Nut wrote:
insyncro wrote:
If you add material to the frame...the same amount must be added to the bushing sleeve or you will not be able to torque down the bushings.
The movement will allow other suspension parts to prematurely wear.


Thanks insyncro.

In doing rough measurements, had hoped that the thin metal I used would still allow the bushings to compress up against each other and "fill" the hole in frame........


Thanks Mark.
That is what I was trying to communicate.
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think it is rocket science given the degree of wear we have seen in vans that still drove ok. The point is to keep the repaired metal plate section close to the same thickness as it was originally. You can't just make it as huge as you like without consequences. The big nuts are supposed to get tightened together, binding their washers to the sleeve ends in the process. You don't want the big nuts to work loose and you don't want to deform the rubber excessively.

As for the hole in the plate, it is supposed to be a bit larger than the metal sleeve because that sleeve isn't supposed to touch it. One of the rubber bushings also has a sleeve on it that is supposed to stick through the hole so the hole needs to be sized for that larger sleeve that is part of the bushing.

Mark

Vanagon Nut wrote:

Hey Mark. Thanks for explaining that. I obviously didn't "see" that.

So assuming I compressed the rubber bushings more than OEM spec, does this:

establish an incorrect torque at each nut?
affect how accurately the front end guy could adjust the castor?
over stress the rubber cause premature wear of bushings?

Apologies for this thread hijack!

Neil.
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This matters more in syncros using the full suspension articulation offroad.
If there is play.....other parts will bend and break Sad
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theDrew
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the info.

My 2wd has a more timid life. I'll measure it tonight and see how bad the wear is (maybe i'll throw up a picture) but I'm inclined to just leave it be.

Even if I still had my welder, I'd be really weary of cutting and welding things on the sub frame!
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:
....
As for the hole in the plate, it is supposed to be a bit larger than the metal sleeve because that sleeve isn't supposed to touch it. One of the rubber bushings also has a sleeve on it that is supposed to stick through the hole so the hole needs to be sized for that larger sleeve that is part of the bushing.

Mark



Cool. This is what I thought and anticipated best I could at the time. Even w/o shims, I'm sure what I did is better than what was there.

This is in NO way a criticism of any suggestions or techniques posted here, but .....

Even with added shims, is it poss. that each bushing won't properly butt up against each other thus allow a small amount of the metal sleeve to be exposed? Even if so, and as per your "rocket science" comment, likely no big deal and kind of a moot thought. 90+ % of that sleeve would be carried by the bushings and IMO, simply filling and shaping the hole with weld might not be stable enough.

@ theDrew

For me, I found there was no cutting on frame required. Just cleaned things up, and had at 'er. Notes I made in my page may shed light on better ways to do it. For me, the only hesitance I had was welding in my carport in a fairly tight space. This was all new to me. I don't think there was a great deal of penetration had but IIRC, the actual sub frame material is sandwhiched together; not a solid piece. e.g. one might get decent penetration, even with a 110AC MIG. My beads were "proud" but in spite of that, the plate is holding thousands of miles later.

Neil.

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50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

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Brickwerks
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://brickwerks.wordpress.com/2012/01/20/check-your-radius-rod-bushes-t3-models/

We see loads that are goosed, I could tell you a much better way to repair, but then I really would have to kill you!
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Brickwerks
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4858276758...amp;type=3
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theDrew
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I finished replacing the rods last night.

I'm closing the book on this one, I'll just keep any eye on the driver side one.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

has anyone gotten the oe diameter of that hole?
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