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Alternator wiring
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 12:15 am    Post subject: Re: Alternator wiring Reply with quote

So what is connected to the green DF wire running from the vr plug to the alternator plug? If nothing is connected to DF to give it current for the field circuit your alternator will never charge.

FYI, some vrs have a 4-wire plug. The vr may have a blue wire running to this 4th connection. I believe it is for a dedicated charging lamp. This wire is not used. Even if VW installed a 4-wire plug this 4th wire was left unconnected. The blue wire from the Gen light MUST connect to the red D+ wire.

Give the Pelican Parts link above a thorough read. It has a set of tests that force the alternator to charge. It may help you isolate if the problem is your vr or alternator. All you need is a length of wire to jumper between wires.
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MSBenko
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 7:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Alternator wiring Reply with quote

Gipeto, if your wires are like the wiring diagram about, you are wired correctly. The green should not be spliced with the red. It should be the blue. Without seeing a picture, I can only guess that it is a dirty blue wire or the green wire is not factory spliced if it is green. Either way, trace the wire to make sure it is connected correctly. It may be wired with mismatched colors. If that is the case, ignore the colors as long as the connection are going to the correct terminals. I would still recommend fixing the colors so that you avoid confusion later.

Make sure you test the alternator. D+ terminal will provide the alternator light with a ground connection and light up when the ignition is on. Ignition power to the build on the common terminal for the alt\gen, oil pressure, and turn indicators. When the engine is running. The alternator should be producing power positive current at the D+ terminal cause the alt light to go out because it no longer has ground. If you do not have power to that terminal, you probably have a bad alternator. I have read that you can clean the brushes and the parts that the rub against with a pencil eraser. I haven't tried it though. I'm also not sure how to test the external voltage regulator.

I have decided to finally replace my alternator with one that has an internal regulator. I just need to get that nut off the fan that was aperently tightened by Hercules.
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Gipeto
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 3:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Alternator wiring Reply with quote

The vr on this car is like the one pictured earlier. It's a black slim box that has a short group of wires coming into a plug end. There are no markings or numbers or even a brand on the box . Colors match your list. Red blue green and brown. What I don't understand is why the red D+ and green Df are spaded together and plugged into the red vr connection. I've tried connecting the blue alt light to the blue vr but no good, doesn't work. And if I were to spice the light wire to the red D+ then I'd also be connecting to Df! The car runs like this, but doesn't charge. I've never seen one set up like this and don't know why it is. I don't know enough about the functions of the regulator. If I join all the wires to matching colors on the vr, i.e.; red to red, brown to brown, green to green, should this theoretically work? Will the blue wire then work the light as it should? Or should I just park this until I can swap the alt out for the internally regulated Bosch?
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 1:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Alternator wiring Reply with quote

Gipeto wrote:
My 67 is also running this same setup with this vr.

Late model alternator with external vr, right? Are you using a compatible vr? Post a pic?


Gipeto wrote:
I'm not getting why the po has it wired this way. The B+ red and the other two reds are connected to each other, I get that. Then at the vr, there is no female plug, he has spades on the wires. The red from the vr is connected with the red from the alt, but it is also spliced to the green here??? I thought the green went directly to the speedometer light?? Do I splice the blue wire that comes from the speedo light to the blue from the vr?? Or to the green?

Unless you are using a different vr the wire colors are as follows:
    red = D+
    green = DF
    brown = D-
    blue = #61 (Gen lamp)

The first three wires above run between the vr and same terminal labels on the alternator plug.
The blue (#61) wire should be spliced into the red (D+) wire.

The blue (#61) wire from the Gen lamp provides the 12v+ needed by the vr to get the alternator charging. This current enters the vr via the red (D+) wire. Once the alternator is providing current on the red wire it become self-sustaining. This same current from the alternator turns the Gen lamp OFF by back feeding current along the blue wire.

The below link goes into detail on how the external vr works:
Pelican Technical Article: Alternator System Troubleshooting
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Gipeto
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 9:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Alternator wiring Reply with quote

Hi,
Thought this might be a good time to jump in on this conversation as I'm having some confusion of my own. My 67 is also running this same setup with this vr. I'm not getting why the po has it wired this way. The B+ red and the other two reds are connected to each other, I get that. Then at the vr, there is no female plug, he has spades on the wires. The red from the vr is connected with the red from the alt, but it is also spliced to the green here??? I thought the green went directly to the speedometer light?? Do I splice the blue wire that comes from the speedo light to the blue from the vr?? Or to the green?
I have another internally regulated alt which I know will simplify things but it's going to be a while until I can get to changing it out. Just trying to get it to charge for now.
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MSBenko
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:27 am    Post subject: Re: Alternator wiring Reply with quote

I have a 75 Standard Beetle. I know that in 75 they came fuel injected. Somewhere along the way a PO converted to carb. I don't know if they had to replace the wiring to do this or what year they used, but I know in 74 an external regulator was used. When I bought the car it had a regulator for a generator installed, but the engine he gave me already had an alternator mounted that required an external regulator. I know the preferred way to go is internal regulated, but I am on a very tight budget and I was able to get my hands on an external regulator for real cheap. I tried to connect it and I don't think my battery is charging.

I remember reading somewhere that the alt\gen light is critical for your vehicle to charge so I guess I need to add the light. Maybe why the battery (new) is not charging?

I want to make sure I have everything wired correctly. I have the external regulator shown below.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The plug on the regulator has 4 terminals as seen below. The red and blue are already crimped the the same terminal. Is the fourth terminal not supposed to have a wire?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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GLHTurbo
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 11:22 am    Post subject: Re: Alternator wiring Reply with quote

I'm referring to the red/black wire shown in this diagram for my bus, and I think what you said below applies:


"If you are asking if the B+ output wire from the alternator can be connected to the large stud on the starter solenoid where the positive battery cable (4AWG) connects, the answer is yes. If you do this then you don't need the alternator B+ wire at the 4-wire junction under the rear seat. This is commonly done with dune buggies and sand rails."

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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ashman40
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Alternator wiring Reply with quote

GLHTurbo wrote:
I'm converting my bus to an internally regulated alternator. I have the red/black stripe 10ga wire, that's spliced into a connector at the starter, with another 10ga wire leading towards the fuse panel up front (I assume, looking at the factory diagram). Can I just connect this to the B+ and be done? Assuming the power will make it's way to the battery via the starter? Or do i need a dedicated 10ga from B+ straight to the positive battery terminal, not passing through the starter lug? Hope this makes sense, thanks!

STOP!
The red/black wire is usually the #50 wire that runs from the ignition switch to the small #50 terminal on the starter solenoid. This wire energizes the starter solenoid when the ignition key is turned to START. Often, this wire starts as red/black at the ignition switch, turns into a solid red wire for the majority of the run, turning back into a red/black wire under the rear seat for the last few feet to the starter solenoid. There is a two wire junction below the rear seat where the red/black wire running to the starter may join up with a red wire coming from the ignition switch. This wire does not run to the fuse box. DO NOT confuse this red #50 wire with the red #30/B+ wire that is the constant 12v from the battery.

On the later model cars that came with an alternator there is a large white rectangular 4-wire junction below the rear seat. Here, a wire from the positive battery post joins with a wire from the B+ terminal on the alternator. They also join with a red #30 wire that runs to the front of the car (fuse box). This is the main power wire that powers everything behind the dash. These wires have nothing to do with the starter.

If you are asking if the B+ output wire from the alternator can be connected to the large stud on the starter solenoid where the positive battery cable (4AWG) connects, the answer is yes. If you do this then you don't need the alternator B+ wire at the 4-wire junction under the rear seat. This is commonly done with dune buggies and sand rails.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:48 am    Post subject: Re: Alternator wiring Reply with quote

wet_bread wrote:
GLHTurbo wrote:
I'm converting my bus to an internally regulated alternator. I have the red/black stripe 10ga wire, that's spliced into a connector at the starter, with another 10ga wire leading towards the fuse panel up front (I assume, looking at the factory diagram). Can I just connect this to the B+ and be done? Assuming the power will make it's way to the battery via the starter? Or do i need a dedicated 10ga from B+ straight to the positive battery terminal, not passing through the starter lug? Hope this makes sense, thanks!


VW used the starter lug #30 as a junction, so why shouldn't you? Smile


Fair enough, I just wasn't sure if using it with an internally regulated alt vs an externally regulated 6V generator would bring any reason not to.
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wet_bread
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:28 am    Post subject: Re: Alternator wiring Reply with quote

GLHTurbo wrote:
I'm converting my bus to an internally regulated alternator. I have the red/black stripe 10ga wire, that's spliced into a connector at the starter, with another 10ga wire leading towards the fuse panel up front (I assume, looking at the factory diagram). Can I just connect this to the B+ and be done? Assuming the power will make it's way to the battery via the starter? Or do i need a dedicated 10ga from B+ straight to the positive battery terminal, not passing through the starter lug? Hope this makes sense, thanks!


VW used the starter lug #30 as a junction, so why shouldn't you? Smile
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GLHTurbo
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:12 am    Post subject: Re: Alternator wiring Reply with quote

I'm converting my bus to an internally regulated alternator. I have the red/black stripe 10ga wire, that's spliced into a connector at the starter, with another 10ga wire leading towards the fuse panel up front (I assume, looking at the factory diagram). Can I just connect this to the B+ and be done? Assuming the power will make it's way to the battery via the starter? Or do i need a dedicated 10ga from B+ straight to the positive battery terminal, not passing through the starter lug? Hope this makes sense, thanks!
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:43 am    Post subject: Re: Alternator wiring Reply with quote

Thank you so much! Glad to know my idea wasn't crazy
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Alternator wiring Reply with quote

The white connector under the rear seat where the three heavy gauge wires come together is the same whether VW pushed an externally or internally regulated alternator out of the factory line. No need to touch this B+/#30 junction.

Your description of connecting the blue #61 wire from the Gen lamp to the green DF wire and using this blue+green wire to connect the Gen lamp to the D+ terminal on the internally regulated alternator is exactly correct.

As far as the remaining red and brown wires that ran from the VR under the seat to the alternator... leave them there. Just tape them up and/or tuck them away. They could be useful as spares in the future. If you ever plan to install a tach in your dash, you could run the tach wire that runs to the ignition coil #1 (-) terminal and route that wire so it reaches the rear seat. Splice it into one of these spares and you can avoid having to run it through the C-pilllar (a big pain in the butt).
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Alternator wiring Reply with quote

Ash man, question for you. The wiring on my 74 super beetle looks exactly like this. Luckily it looks like none of these wires have ever been touched by any of the previous owners. I currently am running the externally regulated alternator. I'm sitting here trying to figure out how to wire an internally regulated alternator up here in the near future. Would i not be able to leave the red wires connected in that large connector just as they are? Then on the new alternator connect the large solid red wire to B+ and the green wire to the other terminal for the gen light. Then be able to go back under the back seat and splice together the blue wire coming from the light with the green wire coming from the alternator after disconnecting the existing voltage regulator. And cap off the small red wire in the engine bay as well as under the rear seat.

To me it looks like if i dismantle the current junction where all the red wires are currently connected, ill be disconnecting the diagnostic port (not a big deal im sure) and the feed to the rear window fogged relay. Any insight would be great.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

will check that one tomorrow. thanks for the pic that would clear things up !!
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rickygtattoo13 wrote:
so are those wires (green and brown) fine to be like this? should they be linked to something in the engine bay?

like i said everything seams to work fine

Short answer, yes it is fine to leave them like that.

You should check under the rear seat. Do you still have the external VR connected? Should look something like this:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


You could remove the VR and pull the wires if you want a clean look.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so are those wires (green and brown) fine to be like this? should they be linked to something in the engine bay?

like i said everything seams to work fine
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rickygtattoo13 wrote:
i was looking at mine the other day and this has been like this for years but now i dont think its right

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

That looks like your car originally came with an externally regulated alternator and had been converted to an internally regulated one. The external VR alternators had four wires:
    B+ : heavy gauge red wire. Regulated 13.8v+ output to battery and electrical harness.

    VR wires
    D+ : red wire. Lower current regulated output from alternator similar to B+ but meant to provide the VR a voltage source to maintain the field circuit
    DF : green field circuit wire from VR. Regulates the alternator output.
    D- : brown ground wire between the VR and alternator so they share a common reference ground.


You should probably find that the red wire connected to the D+ terminal is spliced to the blue #61 wire under the rear seat. This runs all the way to the Gen light on the speedo. The PO just used one of the old VR wires to extend the #61 circuit to the alternator.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i was looking at mine the other day and this has been like this for years but now i dont think its right

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ashman40 wrote:
This diagram from Speedy Jim's site may help some:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It is meant to show how to wire a Gen and Oil light for a Dune Buggy, but it shows that both lamps are powered from a 12v+ fuse. For the Gen lamp, the blue wire runs from the bulb to the D+ terminal.

With the ignition ON and engine OFF, current is flowing from the fuse through the Gen lamp and to the alternator where the circuit is grounded and the Gen lamp should be ON.

With the ignition ON and the engine RUNNING, the alternator will generate current and output through both the B+ and D+ terminals. B+ will recharge the battery and power the cars electrical systems. D+ will literally, "push back" the current coming from the Gen lamp and current flow through the D+ circuit will stop. There will still be 12v on the wire, but with 12v+ being fed into both ends of the D+ circuit no current flow happens and the Gen light is OFF. There may actually be some small current flow in either direction, but not enough to light the Gen lamp. This is why some car's Gen light is dimly lit at idle, one side of the other has a lower voltage and a small amount of current starts flowing.

This is why the Gen light is ON before the engine starts and OFF after the alternator is spinning.


Thanks for this clarification by this simple graph.
In the meantime I repaired the car, there was a ground at the speedo, made the gen light constantly lit and made the charging voltage very low or nothing.
This is a 1303 and the whole dash and speedo is a PITA, I do hate it.
Thanks again.
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