Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Wiring help (Watson kit)
Page: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Forum Index -> Beetle - Late Model/Super - 1968-up Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Vinnems
Samba Member


Joined: December 23, 2008
Posts: 1178
Location: Simi Valley, CA
Vinnems is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:54 pm    Post subject: Wiring help (Watson kit) Reply with quote

First off, great wiring kit, just the instructions are a bit confusing. I can tell this kit wasn't made exactly for VWs, but is close enough it seems to work pretty well. For those thinking about buying it, I say it has moderate difficulty. You'll need some wiring experience and have some tools if you want to do it right. If you got the skills and plan on adding a bunch of fancy store, like an ignition with an accessory position or a sick sound system, GET THIS KIT!! If not, a stock harness will save you a headache.
Anyways, I just finished bags A and B which correspond to the ignition, starter, and alternator. One thing I've run into confusion with is wiring the alternator.
I have two spots on it for wires, as pictured:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The post is marked B+, while the male connection has no markings. This is a brand new 1776 build by Chico Performance, unsure on the manufacturer of the alternator (can't find marks and the build list doesn't say).
What I'm confused on is two things.
First, one wire is marked REGULATOR EXCITER WIRE. It says in the instructions to connect it to the alternator lamp. Is this the light on the speedometer or is this something else? The fuse box has a diode installed that can be used if there was no light present on the car.
Second, the instructions call out for the big red wire, labeled BATTERY LEAD to be connected from the starter solenoid to the alternator via a small female spade connection. Problem is, I don't have any connection like that on the alternator. The one on the alternator is connected to the before mentioned REGULATOR EXCITER WIRE which connects directly to the fuse panel, and the only other connection I can make on the alternator is to the post marked B+. So I bought a ring connector and attached the wire that way. Is this correct?
My reasoning for this is, looking at the wiring diagram for my car (71 Super) in the Bentley, there is a B+ connection that located on the voltage regulator and runs to the starter solenoid. I figure with the Watson kit you don't use the voltage regulator so its skipping going through the regulator and connects directly.
Any help is appreciated. Don't want to try and start my car only for it to explode Laughing Laughing Laughing
EDIT: Here's the Watson wiring diagram, if anyone wants to look at it:
http://www.americanautowire.com/PDFLink/92964974%20500408%20IN.pdf


Last edited by Vinnems on Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
bugnrob
Samba Member


Joined: November 03, 2006
Posts: 74
Location: Bama
bugnrob is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like you have it right.

Your alternator is internally regulated.

REGULATOR EXCITER WIRE goes to the lamp in the speedo. The speedo needs to be getting 12 volts to the bottom tab. I know the lamp makes the alternator charge. You mentioned a diode in the fuse box, someone else will have to chime in on that.

BIG RED WIRE needs to go to the positive terminal on the battery. The factory went straight to the battery. But daisy chaining from the starter to the battery is another way to do it ( Scirocco's have their alternators wired that way).
_________________
-----------------------------
74 Super Beetle - Sunroof, Western Wheels
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Vinnems
Samba Member


Joined: December 23, 2008
Posts: 1178
Location: Simi Valley, CA
Vinnems is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks bug. This kit is a bit weird but I think I'm getting it. On the battery thing, how this kit is designed is that the starter goes to the battery, and the big red wires go to a battery junction that you put anywhere in the car. Not exactly sure why this is, but I suspect it makes it easier to hook up an ignition that has an accessory position, so you don't engage the starter to get radios and such to work. I'm going with stock ignition switch, so I could go right to the battery, but for simplicity sake I'm just following Watson's instructions.
About the diode thing, the instructions have other info regarding this. On the fuse box is a spot where you can either put a 20 amp fuse OR a diode. I believe (and like you said, someone can chime in on this) that if you connect to the alternator/generator light (which acts as the diode would?), you use the 20A fuse. If your car doesn't have the lamp (keep in mind this kit is not made for VWs) or I guess skipping the lamp entirely (and just assume your alternator is working), you can use the diode. I don't know, the instructions seem really vague on this. I believe, though, that since VWs don't have volt gauges, all you have as an indicator your alt/gen is working is simply that light, correct?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
old DKP driver
Samba Member


Joined: March 30, 2005
Posts: 3802
Location: Los Gatos,Ca.
old DKP driver is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:00 pm    Post subject: 51 AMP ALT Reply with quote

Hello,

Did you already remove the old volt reg under the back seat and,
connect all the Red wires and also the Blue and green wires?

They needed to be connected if they were not already done
since in 1971 you would of had an generator and not an alternator.

also,where is the ground for the Alternator?
_________________
V.W.owner since 1967
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Vinnems
Samba Member


Joined: December 23, 2008
Posts: 1178
Location: Simi Valley, CA
Vinnems is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

old DKP, the engine is not the original from the car. It is a completely new 1776 build from Chico Performance. It has an alternator (what voltage, I don't know, I can ask Anibal tomorrow) on it as opposed to a generator. The alternator doesn't have the D+ or DF spots like in the original wiring diagram (for reference) or a spot for a ground.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
old DKP driver
Samba Member


Joined: March 30, 2005
Posts: 3802
Location: Los Gatos,Ca.
old DKP driver is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:51 pm    Post subject: 51 amp Reply with quote

According to the Chirco website it should be a 51 amp alternator.
_________________
V.W.owner since 1967
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
fclmscott
Samba Member


Joined: February 22, 2003
Posts: 168

fclmscott is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vinems, I feel your pain. I also insalled this kit. See my writeup
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=488822&highlight=

I ran B+ to starter solenoid. Other wire goes to gen light. Basically the gen wire goes to ground at the alternator when it is not turning and copletes he circuit to illuminate the gen indicator light because it is always hot with the key on. Also look at my drawing for your gen light wiring. Have you figured out how to wire your turn signal indicator light? The drawig shows how I wired mine using a relay to switch polarity. Reason is, is that the same hot wire to the gen light is the same hot wire for the turn signal indicator light and oil press light. Check out the drawing and you'll see what I mean.

I have my other revised drawings if you run across anything else. And yes your right, as you probably figured out this kit is for american cars with a a few VW parts thrown in. If I had known then what i know now I would have gone with a VW harness.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
fclmscott
Samba Member


Joined: February 22, 2003
Posts: 168

fclmscott is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

almost forgot, the diode in the fuse box comes out. The gen indicator light serves the purpose of the diode.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Vinnems
Samba Member


Joined: December 23, 2008
Posts: 1178
Location: Simi Valley, CA
Vinnems is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks fcl. I don't know how I missed your topic, I did a search for Watson on this forum and read a couple pages in. I'm sure your diagrams will come in handy.
I'm just getting started on bag C when I ran into trouble where my taillights mounting points are rusted away so I have to buy new ones before I can wire it up.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 10652
Location: North Florida
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FYI, even if it is not maked, the small wire at the alternator is the D+ terminal.

The diode in this circuit can serve two purposes....
    replace the gen/alt lamp - the lamp adds resistance to the power coming from the ignition. This creates a small voltage drop which is expected by the VR. If you just wired the D+ straight to the ignition it would see a higher voltage and would stop charging the battery too soon. The diode typically creates a 0.7v drop to the voltage passing though it.

    prevent current from back flowing into the ignition circuit - the diode only allows positive current to flow in one direction (towards the side with the stripe). So if placed in the Gen/Alt light circuit it will allow current to flow TOWARDS the alternator D+ terminal. This allows the VR to regulate the charging system.
    While the alternator is spinning, it creates current and sends it out BOTH the B+ and D+ terminals. When the ignition is turned OFF the voltage from the battery to the ignition coil is turned OFF which should shut the engine OFF. As the engine is spinning down, the alternator is still sending current out the D+ terminal. This is connected to the ignition circuit via the Gen/Alt lamp. If there was nothing to prevent the current flow, the alternator could still provide voltage to the ignition circuit and power the ignition coil. A correctly oriented diode in the Gen/Alt circuit would prevent ANY current from flowing back into the ignition and prevent the engine from running AFTER the ignition switch is turned OFF.

_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
jasoncardenas21
Samba Member


Joined: February 19, 2008
Posts: 206
Location: Hawthorne, NV
jasoncardenas21 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fclmscott wrote:
Vinems, I feel your pain. I also insalled this kit. See my writeup
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=488822&highlight=

I ran B+ to starter solenoid. Other wire goes to gen light. Basically the gen wire goes to ground at the alternator when it is not turning and copletes he circuit to illuminate the gen indicator light because it is always hot with the key on. Also look at my drawing for your gen light wiring. Have you figured out how to wire your turn signal indicator light? The drawig shows how I wired mine using a relay to switch polarity. Reason is, is that the same hot wire to the gen light is the same hot wire for the turn signal indicator light and oil press light. Check out the drawing and you'll see what I mean.

I have my other revised drawings if you run across anything else. And yes your right, as you probably figured out this kit is for american cars with a a few VW parts thrown in. If I had known then what i know now I would have gone with a VW harness.


Wow, thanks for sharing the link. I'm probably ordering my harness this week.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Facebook Twitter Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Zacharysayre
Samba Member


Joined: July 03, 2004
Posts: 563
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Zacharysayre is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have installed this kit into my beetle. I had no clue what I was doing. I got it installed over 3 days and very thing worked just fine.

The diode explanation from the directions
Quote:
Note 2: If using a self excited ONE-WIRE alternator, the ALT DIO/IGN position on the
PANEL CONNECTION BLOCK can be used as an extra Fused Ignition feed. This
can be accomplished by removing the diode (labeled Diode/Ign) which is plugged
into the top of your panel. Replace this diode with a fuse rated at no more than 20
amps


The ground wire goes on the bolt just to the left of the block that your purple wire is connected to.

Quote:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Also the watson's site states
Quote:
Turn Signal Indicator Diode
Allows you to use one indicator light (like original VW) to show you that either the left turn, right turn or 4-way flashers are blinking. Both left and right "sides" feed through diodes to feed one light. 1 amp maximum load.


They sell this a little farther down on the page. Then the turn signals will work correctly.

Also, the lady that helped my purchase the kit. She said a good thing to do is to install one bag. Then hook the battery up and check it. Then disconnect the battery and install the next bag. That way if there is a problem you'll know that it is in the bag you just finished. Easier to fix a problem than to have a lot of them once you have completed the kit install.

Hope this helps.
_________________
If it ain't steel, it ain't real

Dieter's Blog & photo gallery - 1970 beetle

Abbey's Blog & photo gallery - 1967 11 window walk-thru
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Classifieds Feedback
AggieDave
Samba Member


Joined: October 27, 2008
Posts: 248
Location: Texas
AggieDave is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fclmscott wrote:

I have my other revised drawings if you run across anything else. And yes your right, as you probably figured out this kit is for american cars with a a few VW parts thrown in. If I had known then what i know now I would have gone with a VW harness.


I ended up getting a local hot rod shop that has a lot of experience running American Autowire harnesses to complete my install of the Watson "kit." Every other part of the car I had no problem completing myself, but adapting this wiring harness to the VW from their limited diagrams...well, it is hard.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Vinnems
Samba Member


Joined: December 23, 2008
Posts: 1178
Location: Simi Valley, CA
Vinnems is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, let me see if I got this right. Going off your drawing FCL, I have the wire run from the Alt/Gen spot on the fuse box to the bottom tab on the indicator bulbs, then I have a wire run from the Alt/Gen light to the D+ tab on the alternator? And use the 20 amp fuse in place of the diode.
People are saying something about a ground on the alternator. Ground what? Watson directions aren't saying to ground anything. Do I splice a wire going to D+ and also have it go to ground?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
schadenfreude
Banned


Joined: August 25, 2011
Posts: 1535

schadenfreude is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the ground is for rusty (corroded gen pedestal mounts) "optional" 'you know what you got , just look, "
the D+ runs the idiot lamp, a good idea,
and your speedo has one, so why not use it. (dont for get power to the lamp) Idea

they give you a diode for stealing other lamps (this is called WIRE ORing
in the logic business) you can use 1 lamp for 100s of signals.

I have one old car that has a diode box full of "OR" gates each causing fast idle to the ECU (1 pin)
this is nothing new. the diode and is a nice feature they added.
a diode is like a check valve in fluid pipes. nothing more.


the B+ is the main charge wire. it must find a low impedance wire feed( large wire ) to the battery, it must be rated at full gen out put. or fail.
IN some cars that is to the battery direct, and some to the starter solenoid (bat term) or some place physically different but electrically the same. see you cars actual schematic or follow those wires and make your own drawing. for sure, closer to battery plus is best.

excite is BOOT , that is Boot strap. (the chicken or the egg)
some regulators will not self excite, there are 100s of designs but forget that.
On some regs, the idiot lamp wakes up the regulator and the regulator
feeds a small current to the rotor coil.
this assures (exciton) of the alternator , when first spun over.
or it will be born dead. DOA.

in this case, some gens can start up with latent magnetism, but not all.
as does real DC generators. (after polarizing them)
on other brands of regulator , it does this no matter what.
all this over one 3 cent resistor missing in some regs. sigh.
.
yes, please do not blow it up (you are wist to pause !_
connected it with battery minus disconnected.

the starter and generators (alts ) are not fused.
never ever ground these nodes by accident, use insulated tools if you must work them hot .


one of the best ever here
one page. (shows graphically who regulators can be wildly different)
http://oljeep.com/gw/alt/edge_Alternator_Theory.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 10652
Location: North Florida
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vinnems wrote:
People are saying something about a ground on the alternator. Ground what? Watson directions aren't saying to ground anything. Do I splice a wire going to D+ and also have it go to ground?

No.

With externally regulated alternators you often want a dedicated ground wire between the alternator and the regulator so there is no difference in potential (voltage).

For internally regulated alternators (like yours) a separate ground wire is not needed since the regulator is internal and SHARES the same ground as the alternator. The alternator body is grounded to the car by clamping it to the alt stand.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
schadenfreude
Banned


Joined: August 25, 2011
Posts: 1535

schadenfreude is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it is good practice to use a hard ground for all uses.
corrosion happens.

ive grounded more alternators that i care to mention for that fact.

i check voltage drops end to end and find this all the time.

in fact , i upgrade my ignition and use no 1 body grounds whatsoever.

one of the worse junk cars ever were 80s cares that still used body grounds for critical systems (besides sparks plugs)
Ignition electronics.
and sensors.
they were too cheap then to put in wired grounds.
that is all gone now.

but OP can do as he wishes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Vinnems
Samba Member


Joined: December 23, 2008
Posts: 1178
Location: Simi Valley, CA
Vinnems is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, so looking at fcl's diagrams, the original car diagrams, and Watson's diagrams, I've realized that the problem with this kit is that it's streamlined for a single set up in a VW with specific stuff. If you don't have an internally regulated alt, then you are on your own on wiring (external regulator and whatnot). If you don't have a 5 prong headlight relay, you're on your own with wiring (which is what fcl had to do it seems). I gotta dig into it more, but there's other stuff.
One thing I thought was really unprofessional was that for the license plate lamp, the only instructions it gives you to connect it to the lap. Great, thanks Watson. The lamp is hardwired with a connection and a ground. I ditched the ground and spliced the wire light wire with a connection coming off the parking light (Watson's shows no ground, so I'm hoping I don't need one here even though VW shows it), but I think it's really stupid to put a kit out and provide shoddy instructions like that. I've had to go by a couple different size connectors just to get through bag C. So much for "EASE OF INSTALLATION!!"
I think their fuse box is nifty, leaves room for alot of options and upgrades, but this kit is seriously lacking. If I wasn't so deep into it I'd chuck it and go buy and original wiring loom. Cheaper, plus has all the connectors already on so i wouldn't have had to buy a crimper.
So, to reiterate what I and many others have said about this kit, unless you've done wiring work and plan on putting a lot of modern stuff into your car, skip this kit, not worth the headache of trying to make it match to you're car.
EDIT: Looking at the diagram, found another thing that will be a pain in the ass. I have a dual circuit master cylinder, with two separate three prong brake switches. The kit tells me to plug two wires into my brake switch, and that's it. So I'm on my own figuring out what to do with the third prong on the one switch and what to do with the second switch all together (just splice wires to corresponding connectors, it seems from the VW diagram). Really annoying.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
schadenfreude
Banned


Joined: August 25, 2011
Posts: 1535

schadenfreude is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes, and it is hard to make instructions that fit 50 years of cars
VW is odd that way. so many cars, so many modified cars.
on some cars, they dont have any original wiring at all.
all documents are based on assumptions
on vw there are too little.

what they assume is car is stock and wired stock(many do that)
and show how to tie in to stock points. leaving out all those details.

the best way is to see how the unit you want to runs ,ran in an original car.
then look at your cars wiring and see how that can be accomodated.

the internal is easy, 3 wires (ground B+ and idiot lamp
the external is harder, it needs the connections as shown and with proper gauge feeds ( this is seen on the org. germ. drawings the mm gages)

cheers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
schadenfreude
Banned


Joined: August 25, 2011
Posts: 1535

schadenfreude is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

word to the wise.
all cars, old cars, and for sure rusty cars.
all can operate better by running a ground buss.

using the body as ground is nothing but trouble.

yes, it can be made to work but not always.

if lamps dont glow and you have 12v on both sides,
BINGO.

run a ground and win.

my friend in a water car has fuel pump die at bad moments.
it's grounded under a fender to the body (sucks) POS suzuki's
i had him move that ground indoors, now it dont fail.

i look at them like this.
if this fails, how pissed will i be. (on the fly )
then fix it, before it fails.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Beetle - Late Model/Super - 1968-up All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 1 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2018, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB