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theastronaut
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Joined: November 19, 2007
Posts: 1631
Location: Anderson, SC
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 Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:40 pm Post subject: Engine Noise, Rod Knock? **Problem Found with Pics** |
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Well, the engine in my '64 is making an ominous noise. It's definitly coming from inside the block so I'm thinking it's rod knock, or maybe the main bearing oil clearance has loosened up? I can't really hear the noise over (slighlty low) idle speed. The video isn't loud so you'll have to crank up the volume, and it's most noticable towards the end. Your thoughts?
Link
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Last edited by theastronaut on Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:22 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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theastronaut
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Joined: November 19, 2007
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Location: Anderson, SC
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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BTW, the noise isn't there when the engine is cold, only once it warms up. If it was a rod knock wouldn't it be continual? This is kinda why I'm leaning towards a main bearing that's loosened up.
_________________
Strive for perfection in everything. Take the best that exist and make it better. If it doesn't exist, create it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough."
-Sir Henry Royce, co-founder of Rolls-Royce
'64 Beetle Sunroof OG Bahama Blue
'63 Beetle Vert
'66 Beetle
'88 Festiva L
'89 Festiva L
'64 Chevy C10
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DarthWeber
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Joined: November 24, 2007
Posts: 7543
Location: Whittier,CA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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Uh Oh, is this the Jake Raby engine? Or did that go to someone else?
The volume is so low it's hard to hear anything.
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| Mitey62 wrote: |
| Swapped the Compufire for a Bosch blue and some points I had sitting around, started 1st crank. Took her out for a drive, pulls harder, more RPM, and runs smoother. I think I'll be sticking with points from now on. |
| RockCrusher wrote: |
JB weld the case halves....that'll keep the fretting to a minimum.  |
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theastronaut
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Joined: November 19, 2007
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Location: Anderson, SC
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| DarthWeber wrote: |
Uh Oh, is this the Jake Raby engine? Or did that go to someone else?
The volume is so low it's hard to hear anything. |
Darth, it's the 1679cc I bought from Jake, but his nephew built it- he didn't build it himself. I had to jack the volume all the way up to hear it, but it still isn't as clear as it is in person. I'll try to get a better video of the noise.
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Strive for perfection in everything. Take the best that exist and make it better. If it doesn't exist, create it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough."
-Sir Henry Royce, co-founder of Rolls-Royce
'64 Beetle Sunroof OG Bahama Blue
'63 Beetle Vert
'66 Beetle
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theastronaut
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Joined: November 19, 2007
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Location: Anderson, SC
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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The sound is more clear in this one, I pointed the microphone towards the block.
Link
_________________
Strive for perfection in everything. Take the best that exist and make it better. If it doesn't exist, create it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough."
-Sir Henry Royce, co-founder of Rolls-Royce
'64 Beetle Sunroof OG Bahama Blue
'63 Beetle Vert
'66 Beetle
'88 Festiva L
'89 Festiva L
'64 Chevy C10
'66 Chevy C10 |
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DarthWeber
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Joined: November 24, 2007
Posts: 7543
Location: Whittier,CA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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Well, a couple of obvious questions in spite of the fact the noise is coming from inside the case.....does it make the noise with the fan belt disconnected? Is there any play in the pulley? Have you checked the valve clearances?
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| Mitey62 wrote: |
| Swapped the Compufire for a Bosch blue and some points I had sitting around, started 1st crank. Took her out for a drive, pulls harder, more RPM, and runs smoother. I think I'll be sticking with points from now on. |
| RockCrusher wrote: |
| JB weld the case halves....that'll keep the fretting to a minimum. |
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larryvance66
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Joined: January 27, 2009
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Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds like a rod. Could it be the flywheel coming loose? Is it better or worse under load?
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theastronaut
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Joined: November 19, 2007
Posts: 1631
Location: Anderson, SC
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| DarthWeber wrote: |
| Well, a couple of obvious questions in spite of the fact the noise is coming from inside the case.....does it make the noise with the fan belt disconnected? Is there any play in the pulley? Have you checked the valve clearances? |
Still there with the belt off.
Pulley feels fine, but I'll double check with my dial indicator.
Double checked the valve clearance right before I shot those vids- they're all good.
| larryvance66 wrote: |
| Sounds like a rod. Could it be the flywheel coming loose? Is it better or worse under load? |
I pulled the E-brake and let the clutch out with it in gear, I didn't really notice any difference.
_________________
Strive for perfection in everything. Take the best that exist and make it better. If it doesn't exist, create it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough."
-Sir Henry Royce, co-founder of Rolls-Royce
'64 Beetle Sunroof OG Bahama Blue
'63 Beetle Vert
'66 Beetle
'88 Festiva L
'89 Festiva L
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stealth67vw
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Joined: January 22, 2004
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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How does the oil look? Could be a wallered out lifter bore too.
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Jake Raby
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Joined: August 23, 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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Kind of sounds like a lifter bore to me..
Does it change with engine temperature? What oil is in it now?
It also sounds like it could be rocker side clearance.
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Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
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theastronaut
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Joined: November 19, 2007
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Location: Anderson, SC
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| stealth67vw wrote: |
| How does the oil look? Could be a wallered out lifter bore too. |
I just changed the oil last weekend, but noticed today when I was checking the valves that it looked darker than it should.
| Jake Raby wrote: |
Kind of sounds like a lifter bore to me..
Does it change with engine temperature? What oil is in it now?
It also sounds like it could be rocker side clearance. |
Its quiet when the engine is first started (cold) and is noticeable within a couple minutes of running, atleast by the time its idling smoothly. I put Valvoline VR1 20W-50 in it the weekend before last (had Brad Penn until then) but with the rain I have only driven it a few days since the oil change. I had checked and shimmed three of the rockers that were slightly loose to .005-.006" side play, so its not that. It does sound like its inside the block.
_________________
Strive for perfection in everything. Take the best that exist and make it better. If it doesn't exist, create it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough."
-Sir Henry Royce, co-founder of Rolls-Royce
'64 Beetle Sunroof OG Bahama Blue
'63 Beetle Vert
'66 Beetle
'88 Festiva L
'89 Festiva L
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Jake Raby
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I put Valvoline VR1 20W-50 in it the weekend before last |
Interesting. Why in the world did you do that?
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theastronaut
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Joined: November 19, 2007
Posts: 1631
Location: Anderson, SC
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Jake Raby wrote: |
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| I put Valvoline VR1 20W-50 in it the weekend before last |
Interesting. Why in the world did you do that? |
I'd been waiting over a month for a local dealer to get me a case of Brad Penn with no luck. VR1 is the only thing I could find locally that had ZDDP in it. Stupid move, I guess I should have ordered Brad Penn on my own.
I'm going to cut open the oil filter and see what it looks like inside.
_________________
Strive for perfection in everything. Take the best that exist and make it better. If it doesn't exist, create it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough."
-Sir Henry Royce, co-founder of Rolls-Royce
'64 Beetle Sunroof OG Bahama Blue
'63 Beetle Vert
'66 Beetle
'88 Festiva L
'89 Festiva L
'64 Chevy C10
'66 Chevy C10 |
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theastronaut
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Location: Anderson, SC
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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Found the problem, one of the cam bearing thrust flanges had broken off so the cam was free to move back and forth. I guess the extra cam end play was causing the knocking noise? The small peice was in the bottom of the engine on the sump plate, and the rest must have gotten sucked up into the oil pickup (no strainer was present) because the pump gears were chewed up and there were metal particles in the filter. The cam bearings look good otherwise, so I'm hoping the filter caught everything.
Just for the record, the Engle lifters and cam lobes look great! The lifter bores are also still nice and tight. I'm not sure if the lack of double thrust cam bearings caused the thrust flange to break off? I'll build it back with double thrust bearing and straight cut gears to be on the safe side. I'll definitly put a strainer back in also.
Hopefully I can get out with just an oil pump, cam bearings, and a good cleaning of everything. I'll pull the bearings off the crank and double check them while it's apart; hopefully the filter did it's job and saved the bearings and journals.
_________________
Strive for perfection in everything. Take the best that exist and make it better. If it doesn't exist, create it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough."
-Sir Henry Royce, co-founder of Rolls-Royce
'64 Beetle Sunroof OG Bahama Blue
'63 Beetle Vert
'66 Beetle
'88 Festiva L
'89 Festiva L
'64 Chevy C10
'66 Chevy C10 |
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[email protected]
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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Awesome!
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theastronaut
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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Working on a list of parts I'll need, and I'll be sending some business your way!
_________________
Strive for perfection in everything. Take the best that exist and make it better. If it doesn't exist, create it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough."
-Sir Henry Royce, co-founder of Rolls-Royce
'64 Beetle Sunroof OG Bahama Blue
'63 Beetle Vert
'66 Beetle
'88 Festiva L
'89 Festiva L
'64 Chevy C10
'66 Chevy C10 |
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PocketRocket
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Joined: September 22, 2005
Posts: 52
Location: Walla Walla,Washington
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Engine did not have double thrust cam bearings???? Why not!! |
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mark tucker
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Ive seen thrust bearings that were fractured when they were "bent" in the manufacturing prosess.the fault lies with no one.but double thrust may of saved it, or the peice may of still came off & killed the oil pump. gladd to see the rest is all good.how does the thrust on the cam look??check it for any gaulding or other problem aeras&fix as required. |
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theastronaut
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| mark tucker wrote: |
| Ive seen thrust bearings that were fractured when they were "bent" in the manufacturing prosess.the fault lies with no one.but double thrust may of saved it, or the peice may of still came off & killed the oil pump. gladd to see the rest is all good.how does the thrust on the cam look??check it for any gaulding or other problem aeras&fix as required. |
From the initial inspection it looks good with no damage. I'll be double checking everything as I clean it all up for reassembly.
_________________
Strive for perfection in everything. Take the best that exist and make it better. If it doesn't exist, create it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough."
-Sir Henry Royce, co-founder of Rolls-Royce
'64 Beetle Sunroof OG Bahama Blue
'63 Beetle Vert
'66 Beetle
'88 Festiva L
'89 Festiva L
'64 Chevy C10
'66 Chevy C10 |
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vugbug68
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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wow good find! how many miles are on the engine? I'm sure the bearing is at fault, tons of engines go many miles with just the single thrust bearing, although with a bigger cam its a good idea to go dual thrust.
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