| Author |
Message |
55reasons
Samba Swamp Cooler
Joined: December 31, 2003
Posts: 942
|
 Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:35 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| So I assume a Doka is a crewcab then. Lol! |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
syncrodoka
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2005
Posts: 12006
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Doppelkabine
yup, doublecab |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
55reasons
Samba Swamp Cooler
Joined: December 31, 2003
Posts: 942
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Ah, I had no idea where the "Doka" came from.
I do speak broken German though!
Like I said... UFO's. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
keithwwalker
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2005
Posts: 886
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
My Canadian doka has both the ZZZ and regular VIN on the dash. It is an 83.5 and was tracked by Carfax as being registered in Canada back in 84. All the other VIN stamps on the frame say ZZZ. I think every US Vanagon has ZZZ on the frame rail under the the passenger seat area.
I had no problem titling it, but a DOT official did ask about it when I was getting emissions two years ago. I told them which one was correct and that was that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hans j
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2006
Posts: 2715
Location: Salt Lake City UT
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kamzcab86 wrote: |
| hans j wrote: |
| The ZZZ was used for chassis that had multiple variants. My 1981 USA built Caddy has ZZZ stamped in the rain tray VIN but a regular sticker indicating the specific model in the door. My 2001 German Audi S4 has ZZZ as well in the rain tray since the chassis came with multiple engines and avant form. |
A bit incorrect. I've explained this many times before, but here it is again:
VINs outside North America, and the VINs found stamped into the rain tray (or crossmember) of all water-cooled VWs with 17-digit VINs, contain four "Z"s. For North American VWs, these are merely filler digits. The rain tray VINs were standard issue as the cars rolled off the initial phase of the assembly line; the only difference between these standard-issue model-year VINs is the sequential production number. Locations outside of the USA & Canada do not require the same VIN information (many locations, including Europe, still require only a 13-digit VIN) and, therefore, use filler digits during stamping to make the initial assembly process easier and faster.
For example, if 30,000 Cabriolets were built for the 1985 model year, the first Cabriolet built for that year would have WVWZZZ15ZFK000001, while the last 1985 Cabriolet would have a WVWZZZ15ZFK030000 stamped into the rain tray. As the cars went through final assembly, they received their official, individual VINs based on their destination; it was at this time that North American Cabriolets obtained their non-"Z" VINs, while cars destined for sale in Europe received the "Z" VIN on the door plate, the dash plate and on the build sheet. Using the same example, that first 1985 Cabriolet was destined for, let's say, the USA; it's official VIN would be WVWCA0158FK000001 (the internal check code varies and may not actually be an 8 ). The last Cabriolet for 1985 was destined for, let's say, Italy; it's official VIN would be WVWZZZ15Z030000.
The Westmoreland plant followed the same VIN stamping procedures as all other VW factories; therefore, all USA-built VWs will also contain filler Z's in the stamped VIN, regardless of the model.
Since the SINKA in question has a Z VIN plate, I'd assume it's a Euro-market import from years past. |
Not incorrect at all  If your explanation is correct, my USA import Audi B5 S4 is number 120171 built of that year. Interesting thing is, only 6000 cars of my year were sold in USA, 4700 of those being sedans. So where did the rest of the 114,000 S4's go? They were all stamped out of the same B5 chassis (USA 1996-2002) and had different engines and restraint systems.
45th position indicates series
5th position indicates engine
6th position indicates restraint system
In my research, not much changes with #4, my vanagon is still filler but my caddy and s4 have letters.
#5 is engine size, I haven't found internal VAG information on this yet but all cars regardless of chassis, if they share the same engine, they share the same letter.
#6 seatbelts and airbags. I did find a chart somewhere that said 0 was just regular seatbelts and 6 was full airbags and such with a couple other numbers in between.
So North American markets DO use the numbers where Rest of World doesn't. Doesn't mean I am incorrect, I just simplified it. You just need to compare chassis VIN to window or sticker VIN (which would be applied in accordance with it's destination market). My coworker ran into the issue trying to register his caddy here in Utah, VIN's didn't match and he had to convince the DMV it was the same truck even though all the rest of the numbers matched the number on the title.
_________________
1986 Canadian Syncro Westy TDI - 1989 Syncro Single Cab - 2001 Audi S4 - 1981 VW Caddy ABA - 1980 VW Caddy EV - 1973 VW T-181 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kamzcab86
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 7923
Location: Arizona
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| hans j wrote: |
| Not incorrect at all |
You initially said, "The ZZZ was used for chassis that had multiple variants." It was that particular part of your post that I was referring to being a bit incorrect, which is why I then explained what the Z's mean. Every single VAG vehicle built has the Z's as it goes through initial stamping, regardless of the chassis and its variants. During initial stamping, the factory doesn't give a hoot what the car's features and destination are. It's during the final assembly process (interiors, engines, transmissions, etc.) that each car is assigned its "orders" and is given its official VIN. Those cars destined for North America were assigned digits 4, 5, 6 and 9 in the VIN because the federal government requires that information; cars destined for elsewhere were left alone because those countries do not require that same information, hence their official VINs being the same as the initial stamped VIN.
If "the ZZZ was used for chassis that had multiple variants", then tell me which of these is the 2001 S4 avant and which is the 2001 S4 sedan (both are legitimate USA VINs that I've turned into European/initial stamping VINs using the Z fillers):
WAUZZZ8DZ1A045224
WAUZZZ8DZ1A122362
Long story short: Audi did not distinguish between S4/A4, nor sedan/avant as initial production took place. What makes an S4 avant different from an A4 avant? What makes the RS4 avant different from those two? Strip those three cars down to their shells and what's different? 
The early 1980s VWs were built on the same chassis, A1. Unlike the B5 Audi situation above, most of the A1 chassis Volkswagens' variants can be determined by their VINs, even with the "Z" fillers in place:
WVWZZZ15ZBK012345
1VWZZZ17ZBV128140
WVWZZZ16ZEW012791
WVWZZZ53ZEK015064
One of those is a hatchback Rabbit, one is a Scirocco, one is a Jetta and one is a Rabbit Convertible. Which is which? 15 = convertible, 53 = Scirocco, 17 = Rabbit hatchback, 16 = Jetta.
| hans j wrote: |
| If your explanation is correct, my USA import Audi B5 S4 is number 120171 built of that year. Interesting thing is, only 6000 cars of my year were sold in USA, 4700 of those being sedans. So where did the rest of the 114,000 S4's go? They were all stamped out of the same B5 chassis (USA 1996-2002) and had different engines and restraint systems. |
According to ETKA, roughly 200,000 B5 Audis were built for the 2001 model year; that includes A4s, S4s, & Quattros of both body styles for all markets (that total does not include the RS4s). Of that 200,000, according to you, six thousand were USA-market S4s. What happened to the rest? Those 114,000 were additional S4s shipped to Europe and beyond, plus A4s shipped to the USA and the rest of the world. FWIW, 2001 B5 production began in June 2000 and ended in September 2001.
If anyone questions the validity of the Z thing, click here for an official letter from VAG.
Apologies for the slight off-topicness. 
_________________
~Kamz 
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
 1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hans j
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2006
Posts: 2715
Location: Salt Lake City UT
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kamzcab86 wrote: |
For example, if 30,000 Cabriolets were built for the 1985 model year, the first Cabriolet built for that year would have WVWZZZ15ZFK000001, while the last 1985 Cabriolet would have a WVWZZZ15ZFK030000 stamped into the rain tray. |
This is just where you got me confused. I KNOW they didn't build more than 120,000 B5S4's (or anywhere close to that), and your example implies that (serial/production numbers), and I am pretty confident there aren't 66,000 other syncro westys running around either.
That is why I said variant, because like you said:
| kamzcab86 wrote: |
| Audi did not distinguish between S4/A4, nor sedan/avant as initial production took place. What makes an S4 avant different from an A4 avant? What makes the RS4 avant different from those two? Strip those three cars down to their shells and what's different? |
They stamped out a whole bunch of cars on the line in no particular order and after the engine and other features were fitted to the same chassis (all sharing the ZZZ), they got their new VIN; be it for NA market or left alone for RoW.
So with my Audi, I could give you the first eleven digits, add Z fillers and you wouldn't be able to tell me what I had, just a B5 that was built in Germany and which plant. Your B5 examples are good examples of just that, but they have the serial numbers so ETKA will tell you that.
And so back to your cabriolet example of 1-30,000. It's a good example to indicate serial numbers, but they didn't just do a run of 30,000 cabbies, then switch it up to rabbit or caddy. They are all mixed in. With the B5, they are all still mixed in and with exception to the frontrac, share the EXACT same chassis between the A4 and S4. Just a few bolt on things and different engine/trans gets you something different. They share the same chassis VIN except for serial number.
That is why I said this:
| hans j wrote: |
| The ZZZ was used for chassis that had multiple variants. My 1981 USA built Caddy has ZZZ stamped in the rain tray VIN but a regular sticker indicating the specific model in the door. My 2001 German Audi S4 has ZZZ as well in the rain tray since the chassis came with multiple engines and avant form. |
They rolled several vanagons down the same production line at random. Some destined for camping, some trucks, some ambulances, some passenger vans. All got ZZZ VIN on the chassis, mine got ZB0 on the sticker after it was done. http://www.vanagonparts.com/vin_decoder.html
Oh and I looked at an C5A6 chassis VIN on a car I was working on today, no ZZZ! Full VIN. And you should check your B5 production start dates, I have seen many '96 B5A4 with the 12v V6...
I still wish I had a sinka, or doka, regardless of VIN or destination country.
_________________
1986 Canadian Syncro Westy TDI - 1989 Syncro Single Cab - 2001 Audi S4 - 1981 VW Caddy ABA - 1980 VW Caddy EV - 1973 VW T-181 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
purplepeopleeater
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2005
Posts: 3117
Location: E. Washington
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Here's a fix, buy my doka...then I can get a tristar.
problem solved  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
syncrodoka
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2005
Posts: 12006
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Who cares about audis? 
Vanagons with a ZZZ in the vin code on the dash come directly from the fatherland. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
purplepeopleeater
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2005
Posts: 3117
Location: E. Washington
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
the split section must've merged with the vanagon section cuz the mcode nazi's are here  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kamzcab86
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 7923
Location: Arizona
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| hans j wrote: |
And so back to your cabriolet example of 1-30,000. It's a good example to indicate serial numbers, but they didn't just do a run of 30,000 cabbies, then switch it up to rabbit or caddy. They are all mixed in. |
No; the Cabriolets were all built entirely at the Karmann plant... not a chance of a Rabbit/Golf or Caddy being mixed in. I've got production numbers and photos for the Cabriolets... I'll leave it there.
| hans j wrote: |
| And you should check your B5 production start dates, I have seen many '96 B5A4 with the 12v V6... |
I said: 2001 B5 production started in June 2000.
| syncrodoka wrote: |
Vanagons with a ZZZ in the vin code on the dash come directly from the fatherland. |
Exactly. That's the bottom line. [/end of off-topic discussion]
Now, who's buying the Transporter in question?!
_________________
~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
