Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Hot Shower Install - GPM Pump Question
Page: 1, 2  Next
Forum Index -> Vanagon Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
scottjk
Samba Member


Joined: May 31, 2006
Posts: 467
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
scottjk is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:18 am    Post subject: Hot Shower Install - GPM Pump Question Reply with quote

I find the only thing I miss when road tripping is a quick hot shower after windsurfing or kiting all day so I'm going to install a heat exchanger in my 13 gallon water tank tapped off my under seat heater hoses.

My question is does anyone have experience with showering under different GPM rated pumps? I'm looking at the Shurflo Marine pump at a rating of 1 GPM but I'm not sure if 1 GPM would be enough flow for a RV showerhead.

My goal is to balance water usage with enough flow to comfortably wash off.

Any input would be appreciated... other than "just use a solar shower" or "just use baby wipes". Laughing

Thanks

Scott
_________________
1985 Westfalia 2.5L EJ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
SCM
Samba Member


Joined: January 26, 2011
Posts: 2323
Location: Bozeman MT
SCM is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not very familiar with shower pumps, RV stuff, etc. However, as a frame of reference, a typical household garden hose is about 5GPM. That seems a bit harsh for a shower IMO. I want to say my household shower head restricts flow to 3GPM or maybe a bit less but my memory is foggy on that.
_________________
'91 Westfalia GL Automatic w/Peloquin
2.3L GoWesty Engine
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
scottjk
Samba Member


Joined: May 31, 2006
Posts: 467
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
scottjk is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:55 am    Post subject: RV Shower Reply with quote

I believe the standard flow rate from what I'm reading in RVs is about 2.5 GPM. I'd like to reduce this rate even further to conserve on water due to the small 13 gallon tank in the Westfalia.

The pump I'm looking at is 1 GPM but I just don't know how much spray I'll get out of the shower head.
_________________
1985 Westfalia 2.5L EJ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
joseph928
Samba Member


Joined: September 22, 2011
Posts: 2114
Location: flagstaff az.
joseph928 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:10 am    Post subject: shower head Reply with quote

Blue Bay Bus WE have a 1 GPM pump, seems good and at times I could use even less to save water. WE can take a shower with 1 min. of water , we just turn it on and off. PS we only have a 5 gal. tank. But I cary 5 gal. on the rear rack. When we want to soak we hit a campground. Very Happy
_________________
1987 syncro westy tin top sun roof , GW2.3, rear locker, decoupler, Gary Lee tire rack & winch mount, lift, south african grill, big brakes , rhein alloy ,15 BFG AT, Fiamma 10 foot awning ,140 watt rear 85 watt front solar , mppt, truckfridge, automatic fire extinguishing system, tencent oil cooler, And a RMW SS exhaust! - 1971 bug convertible 1776 engine- 2010 Subaru turbo - 1993 Toyota 4x4 truck - 1999 Harley 95 CI, big bore, Andrews cams . Also 80-84- vans. Stock 65 sunroof bug.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
spitsnrovers
Samba Member


Joined: December 17, 2005
Posts: 804
Location: Calgary, Canada
spitsnrovers is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure of the GPM, but for my take on your project check out
www.griffco.ca/interest and look for the Westfalia link. I think the pump model is mentioned there.

We (particularly the Mrs.) loves this feature.
_________________
'88 VW Westfalia
'75 Triumph Spitfire 1500
'91 Isuzu KB 4X4
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
scottjk
Samba Member


Joined: May 31, 2006
Posts: 467
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
scottjk is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:21 am    Post subject: Thanks Reply with quote

Excellent info. Just what I was looking for.

splitsnrovers... nice write up. I have actually been studying your set up. I can't seem to find the GPM for that Proven pump though.

Joseph... what type of shower head are you using?

Sounds like a 1 GPM pump might be plenty.

Thanks

Scott
_________________
1985 Westfalia 2.5L EJ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
dubbified
Samba Member


Joined: March 03, 2010
Posts: 1287
Location: Redmond, WA
dubbified is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the same questions.. and then it comes to heat range.. where i'm getting heat from, heat dissipation in the lines...

http://www.showerheadstore.com/low-flow.html

That store has alot of great ideas.

Then, I got to thinking about these gizmos found when I was researching Biofuel..

I found these 1/4 and 1/2 GPM spray nozzles used for washing.. I got to thinking I could use these for the shower.

http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/washingsupplies.php#foggit

It isnt the most glorious looking, is Brass.. wont rust.. and low GPM, not what you'd typically use.. but super efficient.. you're only wanting to get wet, and this sucker covers a good area/fogging right?

I want to order this up, put it on a hose.. and test it out.

Temperature comes to mind.. I have a sprayer/fogger in my shower at home, but to get comfortable.. I have to turn it all the way HOT.

The aerating action of the nozzle cools the temp of the water quite considerably.. but its not horrible..

I'd just picked up a Miller MIG and spoolgun to do Alum or SS.. and have in mind a design for either an Aluminum or Stainless Steel heater core type deal.. which will sit atop of the RV cooktop on my kitchenette, or lay down in a firepit.. and provide me with hot water.. So.. kinda like a Zodi.


Last edited by dubbified on Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:05 am; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
PDXWesty
Samba Member


Joined: April 11, 2006
Posts: 5718
Location: Portland OR
PDXWesty is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scott - You might want to use a 2-2.5 gpm pump if you can. You can always add a small valve to throttle the flow down to your liking. 1 gpm is really light for a shower spray. Typical sink sprayers are about 1.5-2.2 gpm. Those small pumps are also listed at a very low head pressure, so you want to get a pump for the gpm you want at the correct head pressure. You'll need to calculate the pressure loss through your piping, hose, and sprayer and have your pump rated for that.
_________________
89 Westy 2.1 Auto
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
70coupyel
Samba Member


Joined: September 06, 2006
Posts: 1658
Location: So.Cal
70coupyel is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My van came with a hand held shower head plumbed in so you could use it with the rear deck open. In tank submersible pump and that was fine for rinsing off after surfing. Sorry I don't have the spec for that pump handy.

edit: Looks like 1.5 GPM Here
_________________
TheAndante wrote:
Saying that specs are different than dimensions doesn't make sense. Porsche specs/VW specs/engineering specs are nothing but a series of dimensions,sizes,percentages,measurements, etc.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=338946&highlight=
70 KG Coup
83 Westy Waterboxer


Last edited by 70coupyel on Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:02 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
scottjk
Samba Member


Joined: May 31, 2006
Posts: 467
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
scottjk is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:56 am    Post subject: Heat Range and Location Reply with quote

I'm going to do almost exactly what roversnsplits did. I'm going to tap the rear bench heater lines, run a copper coil 'heat exchanger' in to the water tank (I'm going to try and open the coil up more than 4.5 inches and squeeze it down so it looks more like a stove heating coil. This way as the water depletes there will still be a good portion of the coil toward the bottom of the tank). I'm planning on making a switch and indicator panel to install somewhere in my dash area to turn on/off the solenoid and monitor function of the system.

I'll also cover the entire tank with Reflectix insulation to reduce heat dissipation.

Pump will be 'on demand' at 30 psi hooked to both the front faucet and a quick disconnect off the rear back cabinet with the expectation of showering off the back end with the door up. I'm upgrading the sink faucet to the Shurflo kit that GoWesty sells.
_________________
1985 Westfalia 2.5L EJ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
dubbified
Samba Member


Joined: March 03, 2010
Posts: 1287
Location: Redmond, WA
dubbified is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is also a really cool device some of the espresso stands use.. its a pressurebladder you can rig inline.. keeps some of the stop/starts of the pump to a min..

http://www.amazon.com/SHURflo-182-200-Pre-Pressuri...JLUXCDQ40P
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
scottjk
Samba Member


Joined: May 31, 2006
Posts: 467
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
scottjk is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:04 am    Post subject: Throttling Pump Reply with quote

PDX... I spoke with a Shurflo tech about throttling the pump with some type of a valve system but he didn't seem to think it would be a good idea. Said it might be hard on the pump. That doesn't make complete sense to me because I'd image that people in RV's adjust their flow rates all the time via sink and shower controls.

It definitely makes more sense to go with the bigger GPM pump due to the flexibility. The way I see it is the pump shuts off when there is 30 psi in the system lines so if I restrict my shower down to the point of creating 30 psi in the lines it should just shut off, but it might cycle too much.

Guess I better buy a pump from somewhere with a good return policy.

dubbified... that accumulator looks interesting.

"Really helped to minimize resonating the noise through the trailer when the pump is running. Now the pump comes on only after the faucet runs for 3 to 5 seconds depending on how far open you turn the faucet. It doesn't do that on/off, on/off, on/off thing when you have the faucet on just a little bit. Very pleased with it. Worth while project".

That seems to answer the cycling question with the larger pump and restricted flow.
_________________
1985 Westfalia 2.5L EJ


Last edited by scottjk on Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:09 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
dubbified
Samba Member


Joined: March 03, 2010
Posts: 1287
Location: Redmond, WA
dubbified is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That accumator will stop the start/stop condition when getting smaller amounts of water.. claims smoother operation.

My parents are on well water, and we had two rather large versions of that.. using air from an air compressor to pump up a bladder.

Pretty cool.

I "WISH" there was a way to coax some of the heat output from the Propex.. or they'd make a all in one answer.. shunt a vent one way.. heat your water... shunt another.. heat your cabin.

but.. being able to heat water on a campfire or alternate heat source is another idea altogether..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
PDXWesty
Samba Member


Joined: April 11, 2006
Posts: 5718
Location: Portland OR
PDXWesty is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Technically, what you are doing would not be allowed by the plumbing code if this were a house. There is a potential for contamination of the drinking water tank with glycol from the engine coolant system. Any leak in the heat exchanger or fittings would contaminate the water in the tank. It would be good if you could keep all your connections and fittings on the outside of the tank and not the inside.
_________________
89 Westy 2.1 Auto
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
derekdrew
Samba Member


Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 216
Location: Wash DC, NYC, CT
derekdrew is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

General notes from hard experience: Unless you are planning to be always connected to external fresh water supply, I suggest an extremely small gpm flow, like maybe using the little pump for the drinking water supply. This will make your water last much longer with little wastage in showering. You can get many showers out of a tank that way, whereas if you use a big pump you may not get two showers out of the stock westfalia tank. Also, heat exchanger based pumps where the heat exchanger is in the flow line are intolerable because you are supposed to vary the amount of water flow as a means of controlling heat transfer and thus temperature. But it is much too hard to control the heat this way, and you would then have no control over the amount of flow, and have a lot of backpressure sometimes on the pump, thus burning it out maybe. Anyway, I found out the hard way not to do this. Instead, get a stainless steel coil, maybe from a windshield washer tank heater (mercedes?) and put that into your drinking water tank.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
tschroeder0
Samba Member


Joined: April 14, 2008
Posts: 2027
Location: Boulder CO
tschroeder0 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did a mod for a shower that was very simple. I like some of the mods I have seen but I think that many are way to complicated and can have much potential for problems down the line.

I had a Zodi camp shower but hated that you had to have it running all the time as it would overheat otherwise (that is the copper tubing would get so hot it would melt the plastic tubing)

So, I tapped into my water tank(drilled a new hole) and with the install of some longer water lines to the Zodi a T and a valve all I do is have a full water tank, fire up the Zodi and hang it from my poptop latch, use the pump on the zodi to heat and recirculate the hot water right back to the water tank. Now you have nice hot water in the tank. The Zodi can really heat water fast.

Once hot I shut down the zodi and then just use the pump (that comes with the Zodi) to pump the nice warm water to my extra long spray nozzle outside and I can take my time and shower. You can obviously turn the pump on and off as needed and take your time.

Any water you do not use is not wasted as it just remains in the tank and cools down.

Very simple and it works very well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
davevickery
Samba Member


Joined: July 16, 2005
Posts: 2887
Location: Fort Collins, CO
davevickery is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is my setup.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2...p;start=20

I started with a 1 GPM Shurflo Nautilus pump - $46.36 Found on Amazon.com. It was fine, but the flow diminishes the higher the shower head is and maybe with the length of hose. So above my head it would not extend out very from the side of the van when attached to the sliding door. I plugged some of the holes in the shower head to get it to shoot out further, but it was still only about 1 foot out. I burned that pump out when emptying the tank (forgot it was on) so my replacement is a 1.1 GPM flojet that is an on demand pump so you can stop flow without turning it off and it doesn't hurt it. It is better quality I think and supposedly can be run dry with no harm. http://www.amazon.com/LF122202A-Automatic-1-1-GPM-12-Volt-3-5-Amp/dp/B000O8AZ6M

It shoots out enough farther now and I think it is perfect.

Medium hot water is a spawning ground for germs. You will have to empty the tank regularly and probably clean it out with bleach more often. My tank is only 4 gallons and is a nice compromise. The complete parts listing is in the thread above. It works great. Uses the rear heater fan switch, setting #3. Originally I removed the rear heater, but I have since put it back. Everything fits and still works great.
Dave
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
scottjk
Samba Member


Joined: May 31, 2006
Posts: 467
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
scottjk is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:58 pm    Post subject: Nice Reply with quote

Nice Dave. I have been using your plans for my ideas also. Thanks for sharing.
_________________
1985 Westfalia 2.5L EJ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
joseph928
Samba Member


Joined: September 22, 2011
Posts: 2114
Location: flagstaff az.
joseph928 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Thanks Reply with quote

scottjk wrote:
Excellent info. Just what I was looking for.

splitsnrovers... nice write up. I have actually been studying your set up. I can't seem to find the GPM for that Proven pump though.

Joseph... what type of shower head are you using?

Sounds like a 1 GPM pump might be plenty.

Thanks

Scott
Blue Bay Bus It's made by Texsport, has an on and off , has 21 holes of 2 different sizes ! Very Happy
_________________
1987 syncro westy tin top sun roof , GW2.3, rear locker, decoupler, Gary Lee tire rack & winch mount, lift, south african grill, big brakes , rhein alloy ,15 BFG AT, Fiamma 10 foot awning ,140 watt rear 85 watt front solar , mppt, truckfridge, automatic fire extinguishing system, tencent oil cooler, And a RMW SS exhaust! - 1971 bug convertible 1776 engine- 2010 Subaru turbo - 1993 Toyota 4x4 truck - 1999 Harley 95 CI, big bore, Andrews cams . Also 80-84- vans. Stock 65 sunroof bug.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
scottjk
Samba Member


Joined: May 31, 2006
Posts: 467
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
scottjk is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:13 pm    Post subject: Shower Head Reply with quote

This looks interesting. Too bad they don't seem to make one with a handle and an on/off switch. Looks like good pressure and spray for .55 GPM

http://www.tinyhousetalk.com/ultra-low-flow-shower-head-for-tiny-houses-rvs-and-boats/
_________________
1985 Westfalia 2.5L EJ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Vanagon All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2018, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB