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Malokin Martin
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2007
Posts: 3100
Location: E-burg
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 Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:16 pm Post subject: Mplate vs VIN/title doesn't match (year is also wrong) |
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I'm a long time baywindow owner looking to get a splitty and I'm a little over my head on the numbers match deal.
Mcode behind the passenger seat:
Built November 2 1965
Model year: 1966
The rest of the Mcode matches the bus (color/13 windows/deluxe)
Code on fresh air above (and title):
1967
Vin in engine compartment is not there. Looks like the sheet metal was replaced at some point...
Price is fair for what it is. Old old VW guy that's been around for years. Van has sat for quite some time. 13 window deluxe.
How worried should I be with buying this? I know this happens a lot with bugs.... In YOUR opinion, would this be a make or break deal? Would it be unsellable down the road after restoration (not planning on selling but shit happens)?
I've been paying it off in increments and I'm about half way. Advice appreciated before i seal the deal with the final half next week.
Last edited by Malokin Martin on Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Malokin Martin
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2007
Posts: 3100
Location: E-burg
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Ps are the inner side of the rivets on the fresh air smooth or do they stick out a bit? |
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olliehank47
Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2011
Posts: 1198
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:23 am Post subject: Re: Mplate vs VIN doesn't match = advice needed! |
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| Malokin Martin wrote: |
I'm a long time baywindow owner looking to get a splitty and I'm a little over my head on the numbers match deal.
Mcode behind the passenger seat:
Built November 2 1965
Model year: 1966
The rest of the Mcode matches the bus (color/13 windows/deluxe)
Code on fresh air above (and title):
1967
Vin in engine compartment is not there. Looks like the sheet metal was replaced at some point...
Price is fair for what it is. Old old VW guy that's been around for years. Van has sat for quite some time. 13 window deluxe.
How worried should I be with buying this? I know this happens a lot with bugs.... In YOUR opinion, would this be a make or break deal? Would it be unsellable down the road after restoration (not planning on selling but shit happens)?
I've been paying it off in increments and I'm about half way. Advice appreciated before i seal the deal with the final half next week. |
One question, what year bus is it, actually? Do you know a 66 from a 67? Post pictures if you are not certain or ask and we can describe details to tell them apart.
As far as ID goes, the M-code plate is not necessary and, technically, not an official source as it is attached with screws and is often missing.
That being said, the vent tag is official and it should match the stamped number in the engine compartment--which is missing, maybe legitimately, maybe not. Unfortunately, the most reliable ID on that vehicle is gone and you are right to suspect the vent tag.
How is the bus titled--as a 66 or a 67? That, to me, would play an important part. If it's titled as a 67 and the vent tag looks original, you probably won't have a problem,. If it's titled as a 66, you could run into issues with the DMV as you have two different VIN's which is a no-no. If there is no title, I'd suggest it be titled as a 67 as the vent tag is the only legitimate ID on the bus--that is, if the bus is really a 67!
Now, all the above is dependent on how anal/knowledgeable your DMV is about VIN locations. If they are savvy and know where to look, you could have issues with the missing stamped VIN. If not, you can direct them to the vent tag and no problems.
If it is truly a 66, then the above suggestions are moot--I, personally, would not title/register a car incorrectly. The fact the M-code plate doesn't match the vent tag is not as important as the vent tag being legit and matching the actual year of the bus.
Before you decide to complete the deal, I'd suggest you let us know some more information about the bus, the vent tag, appearance of the area where the stamped vin should be, the title papers, and the thoroughness of your local DMV. Photos would help.
Many would not worry about titling/registering a car incorrectly, but you asked for input and that is my opinion. Personally, I passed on a nice 67 deluxe for nearly the exact same circumstances as you have--no stamped vin but vent tag and M-code plate matched. Problem was, the M-code plate and vent tag were for a 63 panel. Bus was titled as a 66 using the 63 numbers (ignorant DMV), owner had the bus for 17 years. I could of done the deal and kept the fraud going but chose not to. Somewhere down the line, someone is going to be left holding the bag for a tampered VIN.
Edit: After reading Clara's post, I would second the position that your circumstances do affect the price. Do a little more investigating as to what it will take to rectify the problem with the DMV--if you even can--and use that to negotiate the final price.
Last edited by olliehank47 on Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:44 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Clara 
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Joined: June 14, 2003
Posts: 12401
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:30 am Post subject: |
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Yes, it makes sense to keep in mind that at some point in time you will pass it on. Very few old buses have the same owner for ten + years.
this page tells your about the VIN locations:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/id.php
here is a fresh air vent tag:
Yes, there is concern if the numbers don't match. If the fresh air vent tag came off another bus, and it is titled to that tag, well, it is not really a title to the bus. Probably at some point in the past someone lost the title and took the tag off a junk bus with title, but there is the possibility it was stolen.
*It makes the value lower to have a VIN/ title issue. *
At one point I agreeed to buy a 63 sc truck. When I saw the title, it was titled to the og engine #, which was, of course, long gone. I haggled the price down a bit. I would have to pay for an inspection and re title to get that sorted out.
When I upgraded to a better project truck, I was not able to sell that 63 to someone in Canada who wanted it ( I had not got the inspection and re title). The titled # was not on the truck, so he said the customs people would not allow it.
Evidently it is still being driven around in Oregon. The guy I traded it to didn't care, and it was pretty cheap.
I would prefer to have the bus in ? titled to the missing engine #, than a bodgejob such as what you have.
BTW, Is the fresh air plate correct or the M-code tag?
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Malokin Martin
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2007
Posts: 3100
Location: E-burg
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you so much for the responces!
I'm not to savy yet for 66 vs 67 appearances. The bus is mostly gutted with no engine. What non removable obvious parts of the frame/dash could be used as a reference?
The Mcode does appear to match the color of the original paint and deluxe 13 windows and says its a 66 model year. VIN/titled as a 67
In othe words: VIN/title match, the Mcode just doesn't match the vin.
I'm just trying to grasp the scope of something like this. Is it a:
A.) holy s--t walk away from that.
B.) happens all the time, no big deal.
If rather not sink heaps of money on an ultimatly super sketchy project.
Thank you again for your input! |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51156
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Malokin Martin wrote: |
| What non removable obvious parts of the frame/dash could be used as a reference? |
No finger dip in the metal between the rear hatch and decklid and a square radio hole are 2 that come to mind and are somewhat hard to replace. Other features like flat rubber dash knobs, backup lights and no lock on the gas flap should also be present on a 67.
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olliehank47
Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2011
Posts: 1198
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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Busdaddy pretty much laid out the difference. Early 67's have very few non-removable changes from the 66 but the missing finger dip in the rear cross member is one of them. If the cross member to which the engine cover hinges bolt is flush all the way across, you are 99% sure you have a 67 (the other 1% is the fact the stamped VIN is missing and maybe a rear clip was added--very doubtful.) The early 67's also had the same radio opening as the 66's so that is not necessarily a clue. Your best, non-removable clue is the lack of a finger dip in the cross piece.
Forget about the M-code plate--many buses do not even have them anymore. If the title papers match the VIN on the air vent and it's titled as a 67, you are in a comfortable position, IMO, if you can get satisfactory answers to some questions, such as:
Does there appear there was a need to remove the sheet metal from the engine VIN area (like extensive rust?) What does the owner say was the reason the number is missing? Does the repair look professionally done or a hack job? Can you determine if the vent tag is fastened by original rivets?
Not a "run away now" bus, but one to check a little bit more carefully and negotiate price accordingly. |
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EmpiGT
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Joined: January 27, 2005
Posts: 2597
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Have you even decoded the vin plate to see if it a deluxe model prefix to the vin# If some swapping has been done. Just grabbing any vin plate to have a title chance's are they didn't get a matching model. Since you say everything about the bus matches the m-code, sounds like the vin plate has been swapped. Go check the first two digits of the vin it should be a 24 or a 25 for any model deluxe during those years That would be the first dead give away that it was swapped by a glance. |
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olliehank47
Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2011
Posts: 1198
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| EmpiGT wrote: |
| Have you even decoded the vin plate to see if it a deluxe model prefix to the vin# If some swapping has been done. Just grabbing any vin plate to have a title chance's are they didn't get a matching model. Since you say everything about the bus matches the m-code, sounds like the vin plate has been swapped. Go check the first two digits of the vin it should be a 24 or a 25 for any model deluxe during those years That would be the first dead give away that it was swapped by a glance. |
+1! And please, report back whether or not the tab VIN matches a deluxe. |
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Malokin Martin
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Joined: August 19, 2007
Posts: 3100
Location: E-burg
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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To answer some of the questions from above:
1.) I don't remember a ton about the vehicles appearance. It does have a locking gas door.
2.) "Go check the first two digits of the vin it should be a 24 or a 25 for any model deluxe during those years"
First two digits on VIN/title are 23 (damn)
3.) "Does there appear there was a need to remove the sheet metal from the engine VIN area (like extensive rust?)":
battery tray was replaced plus some other sheet metal. Not a super rusty bus. It's imaginable that someone cut it out for non-sketchy purposes. Not the most clean job, but it's solid.
4.) What does the owner say was the reason the number is missing?
He said he "didn't know the numbers didn't match the mCode until he dug out the title". It's been sitting for about 15 years.
It sounds like the VIN was changed from what Im hearing here (1966 model year registered with a vin from a 67). All in all I'm leaning towards bailing on the deal. It's not a smoking deal, but a fair one. This whole numbers fiasco has got me kind of sour on the whole thing.
What do folks think about all this with the new info? Would it be foolish to top-to-bottom restore a 13 window bus with a funky title?
Thank you all again for the advice! |
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olliehank47
Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2011
Posts: 1198
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Malokin Martin wrote: |
To answer some of the questions from above:
1.) I don't remember a ton about the vehicles appearance. It does have a locking gas door.
2.) "Go check the first two digits of the vin it should be a 24 or a 25 for any model deluxe during those years"
First two digits on VIN/title are 23 (damn)
3.) "Does there appear there was a need to remove the sheet metal from the engine VIN area (like extensive rust?)":
battery tray was replaced plus some other sheet metal. Not a super rusty bus. It's imaginable that someone cut it out for non-sketchy purposes. Not the most clean job, but it's solid.
4.) What does the owner say was the reason the number is missing?
He said he "didn't know the numbers didn't match the mCode until he dug out the title". It's been sitting for about 15 years.
It sounds like the VIN was changed from what Im hearing here (1966 model year registered with a vin from a 67). All in all I'm leaning towards bailing on the deal. It's not a smoking deal, but a fair one. This whole numbers fiasco has got me kind of sour on the whole thing.
What do folks think about all this with the new info? Would it be foolish to top-to-bottom restore a 13 window bus with a funky title?
Thank you all again for the advice! |
The 23 at the start of the VIN is the give away, as you suspect. From what you've posted, the VIN is for a 67 kombi, not a deluxe and the bus appears to be a 66 (try and check the finger dip in the rear hatch support), the M-code is for a 66 deluxe, and there is not stamped VIN. The bus is indeed a 13 window (I assume) so it is a deluxe.
Time to bail, IMO. Someone is going to be one "holding the bag" on this bus that has an incorrect title and you shouldn't be that person, especially if you desire to restore it and pour in lots of money.
It may be possible to get a correct VIN issued by your state's DMV, but from what i can tell, there is no way to ever identify the original VIN on that bus (because it's been cut out) to determine if it's been stolen. Don't know how your local DMV would deal with that. Personally, I wouldn't want the problem, and I'd keep on looking.
Curiously, this is almost exactly the scenario about which I posted earlier, except my experience was a 67 deluxe titled as a 66, using a 63 panel VIN. If you're not completely soured, you should personally visit your local DMV, and be totally honest in describing the VIN/title/missing stamped numbers situation and find out if there is any way to title the bus correctly. |
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Malokin Martin
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Joined: August 19, 2007
Posts: 3100
Location: E-burg
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah ... It's completely what I was looking for in a bus and the price was right if the paperwork would have been legit... Kind of killing me that a simple small thing like numbers could stop the deal on my end. It's so close to being mine and I've been looking forever.
So that's my final cyber concensus from the samba masses? anyone want to convince me otherwise? |
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Busryder
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Joined: September 17, 2007
Posts: 1663
Location: In Your Face...
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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A fool and his $$$.....  ...you already know how the story unfolds.
Good luck on your search man...
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51156
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Malokin Martin wrote: |
| So that's my final cyber concensus from the samba masses? anyone want to convince me otherwise? |
If you have to think about it that hard it's better that you walk now and sleep well. too bad about the bus.
That said I saw a WA titled bus a few years ago that had been registered for years with the production date from the M plate as the VIN, depends on how much attention it attracts and who notices I guess 
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olliehank47
Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2011
Posts: 1198
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| Malokin Martin wrote: |
Yeah ... It's completely what I was looking for in a bus and the price was right if the paperwork would have been legit... Kind of killing me that a simple small thing like numbers could stop the deal on my end. It's so close to being mine and I've been looking forever.
So that's my final cyber concensus from the samba masses? anyone want to convince me otherwise? |
"Kind of killing me that a simple small thing like numbers could stop the deal on my end."
This is not a simple small thing--it is a major thing for all vehicles. At worst, it indicates theft or fraud. At best, it devalues greatly the vehicle during resale. Sure, people can own/operate incorrectly titled vehicles for years due to the lack of enforcement or knowledge by DMV, but sooner or later, someone will catch it (as you did!) and the piper will have to be paid.
I know it's painful to walk away from something that meets your needs, but you will find a proper bus and now, you are a bit wiser--without suffering through a bad experience. Keep looking and enjoy the search. |
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pyrOman
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Joined: July 21, 2003
Posts: 12409
Location: Over 2002 posts deleted!
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:28 am Post subject: |
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It is "better" to have a vehicle with NO documentation at all, than one with botched/mismatching papers. Just sayin'! 
Side note: I had a '70 Benzo for over 10 years, bought at a car dealer. When I was "done with it", as in it was DONE, I called the scrap yard to come pick it up. They almost didn't because there was a single mismatching number on the serial!!! They checked with the dmv and since it was "clear" they took it. Otherwise I would STILL be cutting that "boat" into pieces to do away with it!
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