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dhaavers
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:11 am    Post subject: front brake flex hoses Reply with quote

Pearls of wisdom from the "What did you do today?" files:
(Because I did MANY, MULTIPLE searches but ever found any other specific helps re: flex lines/hoses...)

teej wrote:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Spent a long day in the garage changing out the original 26 year old brake flex lines. Took every trick I knew, but I did not have to replace any of the hard lines. The passenger side front upper union nearly owned me, the flare wrench rounded over the nut, but the combination of focused heat and a notch to allow vise grip use did the trick. (Due caution exercised to not heat the battery thru the vent nor explode the van due to proximity to fuel evap system). Tommorrow fill and bleed, and fold the notch flap back down and seal the cut edges.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I am new to brake work. I could not have done this service without all the great threads on the Samba, in particular info I gleaned from VanagonNut, IdahoDoug, and insyncro. Many thanks!


Continued...
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dhaavers
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delibessleep wrote:
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That is clever as hell!

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dhaavers
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

teej wrote:
^^^Thanks! Actually I was at my wit's end, thinking,

"If only this heat gun had an attachment to direct the output around a corner." Scanned around the garage, and I spotted this old hollow lug wrench.

The real key though was cutting the little flap in the adjacent "stone (and wrench) deflector" sheet metal, which dhhavers improved upon in his post by removing it entirely for the service.

And a disclaimer just for anyone who stumbles upon this searching, remember of course the battery is on the other side of that vent--careful with the heat.

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dhaavers
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to piggyback on teej's project...

* FWIW: teej had notched the sheet metal for wrench access - see his pic #3 above -

Just got through this same gruelling procedure and was similarly frustrated with the sheet metal bracket, but
on closer inspection it appeared to be just pop riveted in place; in fact there was only one out of five rivets
still holding and I made the job a TON easier by just pulling the thing off by hand! Of course, you could drill it out...

In the process you'll gain free & clear access to the brake line union & even allow your choice
of approach angles & suitable tools. Finish by sanding the rust, coat in & out with bedliner & rivet back in place.

Driver's side in process: (bracket pulled & hose out - already cleaned & sprayed w/bedliner)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Could it be any easier to get to? Cool

Pass side all back in place:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I had assumed the purpose of the bracket was to prevent stone/rock damage to the flex hose union;
now it seems more likely it's just to keep the big chunks out of the battery box vent.

I'll finish by adding a couple copper scrubbies to prevent mouse infiltration...

Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

congrats - you won't have to do it again for 15 years
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK - I need a spec check...

Before putting the wheel back on to finish this, I noticed that the new hose seems a trifle short once in place.
With the wheel straight ahead, the hose is pulled straight and seems slightly strained at both ends.
It obviously won't allow turning either direction without a great deal of additional strain on the hose.

Comparing lengths:
Old hose = 18.5 inches
New hose = 16 inches

I called the supplier and he says they "sell a lot of 'em" and he even told me they SHOULD be 16 inches...

Anyone out there have a spec or better source for hoses?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhaavers wrote:
OK - I need a spec check...

Before putting the wheel back on to finish this, I noticed that the new hose seems a trifle short once in place.
With the wheel straight ahead, the hose is pulled straight and seems slightly strained at both ends.
It obviously won't allow turning either direction without a great deal of additional strain on the hose.

Comparing lengths:
Old hose = 18.5 inches
New hose = 16 inches

I called the supplier and he says they "sell a lot of 'em" and he even told me they SHOULD be 16 inches...

Anyone out there have a spec or better source for hoses?


I hate to ask this but..... Smile

Are you observing this with the wheels off the ground? With the wheels on the ground, what does the hose look like?

In terms of hose position when turning, the bracket where flex hose joins metal line to caliper can be adjusted. IIRC, this is shown in Bentley. IMO though, it shouldn't be needed if it hasn't been messed with. On my bracket(s) there's a tab. It think the purpose of this tab is to correctly position the bracket to the knuckle, but I may be wrong.

This is my '81. I don't know if this part is the same or similar on later style brakes. I just couldn't bring myself to pack a Bentley with me while on the road. Wink

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dhaavers
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vanagon Nut wrote:
Are...the wheels off the ground?

Oops. I'll try that... Embarassed

Still, the new hoses are 2.5" shorter...

(Thanks for the save - I guess it's my Norwegian side acting up again.)

Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhaavers wrote:
Vanagon Nut wrote:
Are...the wheels off the ground?

Oops. I'll try that... Embarassed

Still, the new hoses are 2.5" shorter...

(Thanks for the save - I guess it's my Norwegian side acting up again.)

Wink


heh. No probleemo. You're welcome. Smile

I understand how easy it is to "miss" something working on a Vanagon or whatever. Done that at least a few times!

But 2.5" is significant. Still. Maybe 16" is the aftermarket standard. Like the hoses you removed were old enough to be OEM?

Neil.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhaavers wrote:
OK - I need a spec check...


ETKA shows the '86 front brake hose is 460mm long, or 18.11". You must be able to turn the steering wheel from lock to lock, with the tire off the ground, without straining the hoses. If not, it's quite possible your brake line will be damaged by simply going over a dip while turning in a parking lot, for example.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For what it's worth, I had recently ordered the GoWesty stainless braided brake lines (not yet installed) and the front lines measure 18.5". I would be concerned with the 16" lines if they have that much tension with a full turn.
Who supplied the 16" lines and advised that were correct?

http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=23347&category_id=&category_parent_id= front
http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=23346&category_id=&category_parent_id= rear
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perales wrote:
For what it's worth, I had recently ordered the GoWesty stainless braided brake lines (not yet installed) and the front lines measure 18.5". I would be concerned with the 16" lines if they have that much tension with a full turn.
Who supplied the 16" lines and advised that were correct?

http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=23347&category_id=&category_parent_id= front
http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=23346&category_id=&category_parent_id= rear


I also have the SS braided lines and dont remember where I got them, the rears I got at a bike shop (Goodridge). Same 18 inch spec. Seen the Goodridge SS black lines online for a couple bucks less than the GW. I use these black SS Goodridge lines exclusively on my bikes.

I would also be concerned with the shorter length.

Although I seem to remember the brakes lines on the later Vanagons are a different length than the earlier ones, so maybe thats where the incorrect sizing recommendation came from?
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dhaavers
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got 'em on sale here about a year ago: http://www.partsplaceinc.com/products/product-deta...;sku=12508

At that time these were listed in their catalog for all vans 1980-1992, so I thought I was ordering the right hose.
FWIW - they thought so too, as I listed my year & model on the order form like a good guy...followed the rules... Rolling Eyes
As you can see in the link, spec for that hose is now corrected to just years 80-85.

86 is the year calipers changed from ATE to Girling and the hose mounting point moved from a bracket below the
upper ball joint (see Vanagon Nut's pic above) to a small bracket much lower and attached directly to the caliper (see my pic below).
Hence, the need for the additional 2.5"... Idea

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Needless to say, I've contacted PartsPlace & they're working on getting me the correct hoses.

Winston Churchill said it: "Trust, but verify." Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PS - Anyone need a pair of 80-85 hoses? I can't use 'em & I'll make ya a deal. <send a PM>

I've got the correct ones coming from VanCafe as we speak...
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The wrong hoses bummer. Good thing you caught it. Hopefully you had not bled the system yet.

When replacing rusted flex brake hoses, if the line wrench won't work, I cut the hose off at the fitting. I then get a 6 point socket on it and use my 3/8ths impact. I hold the brake line nut with a pair of vice grips. Apply some PB blaster and have always had them come off.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nope - haven't bled yet. I'll flush new fluid after new rear hoses & checking & adjusting the drums back there.
I worked through those 2 just years back so they should be in good working order but also good to check!

I'm not shy about destroying old hoses, but the problem is that the front top hose fitting is recessed/captive
in the body bracket. I had to nearly destroy the spring clip to get the hose fitting clear & work it out like you say.

Fun fun fun!
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rsxsr wrote:
...
When replacing rusted flex brake hoses, if the line wrench won't work, I cut the hose off at the fitting. I then get a 6 point socket on it and use my 3/8ths impact. I hold the brake line nut with a pair of vice grips. Apply some PB blaster and have always had them come off.


Great tip!

Neil.
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50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rsxsr wrote:
The wrong hoses bummer. Good thing you caught it. Hopefully you had not bled the system yet.

When replacing rusted flex brake hoses, if the line wrench won't work, I cut the hose off at the fitting. I then get a 6 point socket on it and use my 3/8ths impact. I hold the brake line nut with a pair of vice grips. Apply some PB blaster and have always had them come off.


I just did this on one of the rear flex lines for my syncro. I marred the nut on the hard line to hell with the vice grips (it slipped a few times), but I was able to get the old one off and new one on without having to remove the completely inaccessible hard line that goes from the wheel well to the T thats up over the coolant lines.

Hopefully I am just as lucky with the other side. The only other option I see is replacing all the lines rear of the pressure valve and relocating the lines to a more accessible route.
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dhaavers
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edgood1 wrote:
...replacing all the lines rear of the pressure valve and relocating the lines to a more accessible route...
Ugh.

<crosses fingers>
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhaavers wrote:
edgood1 wrote:
..... relocating the lines to a more accessible route...
Ugh.

<crosses fingers>


Is this something directly related to the Syncro?

FWIW, replacing the front to back long metal line is not that bad:

https://picasaweb.google.com/musomuso/LongBrakeLineReplacement

I used stock VW "green" line. Would suggest more corrosion resistant material and using one piece. The rear flex hoses aren't that bad a job to do either: http://sites.google.com/site/tubaneil2/rearbrakeflexhosereplacement

This is all for an '81 2wd.

The piece of ABS worked ok to bend lines but in hindsight, using a proper tool with a groove (maybe even a proper sized pulley?) would be wise. Still. The walls of the brake lines did not appear to be malformed. Especially since the curves aren't that extreme.



Neil.
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1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

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