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Simbo Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2013 Posts: 4 Location: Wirral, England
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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Oops! No I hadn't noticed that, but my symptoms are exactly the same. When the weather goes cold it has real trouble starting in the morning before work. The starter turns over slowly and it sounds like the battery is nearly flat, sometimes it starts sometimes it doesn't. It does this even with a fully charged known good battery. Later when leaving work it's not as bad and if only left a shorter time it starts like nothing is wrong, starter motor spins fast, starts first time. Eventually after a couple of weeks the battery does indeed go flat. I've cleaned up all connections and adjusted the auto choke. Over the summer it starts fine and the battery will last until it goes colder again. It certainly does feel as if the cold is affecting the starter motor and making it slow in operation.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks busdaddy. |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12727 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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Just to cover the basics:
you are pushing the clutch pedal in to start, right? The oil in the transmission gets thick when cold and can strain the starter. Once you're driven a bit, the oil is thinner, and easier to turn. Eliminate this variable for us? _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50351
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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What weight engine oil are you running? A 20w50 or even a 15w40 may cause slow cranking when the temperatures drop. |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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SIMBO - buy a new battery or test the one you have. You are describing a borderline bad battery, bad strap or cable. It isn't the oll. England is not cold enough to experience that even with heavy engine oil.
Also don't start it with the clutch in. You will wear out the thrust surface on the #1 main bearing. Always start in neutral.
I'll bet if you measure voltage between the battery terminals when you start it cold and work out from there you will see it drop to about 9V somewhere along the way. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Stuartzickefoose Samba Post Whore
Joined: February 07, 2008 Posts: 10350 Location: SoCal for now...
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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SGKent wrote: |
SIMBO - buy a new battery or test the one you have. You are describing a borderline bad battery, bad strap or cable. It isn't the oll. England is not cold enough to experience that even with heavy engine oil.
Also don't start it with the clutch in. You will wear out the thrust surface on the #1 main bearing. Always start in neutral.
I'll bet if you measure voltage between the battery terminals when you start it cold and work out from there you will see it drop to about 9V somewhere along the way. |
woah woah woah...what did i miss here? most modern cars have a clutch safety switch, so you cant start it in gear accidentally, but means you MUST push the clutch in to engine the starter....how come the bus is so different? i have NEVER heard that before, and if so, would love to do the right procedure here...
mind explaining a bit further pretty please? _________________ Stuart Zickefoose
2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual
206-841-7324
[email protected] |
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CoastalAirCooledVW Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2012 Posts: 1882 Location: Mckinleyville, CA (Humboldt County)
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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Stuartzickefoose wrote: |
SGKent wrote: |
SIMBO - buy a new battery or test the one you have. You are describing a borderline bad battery, bad strap or cable. It isn't the oll. England is not cold enough to experience that even with heavy engine oil.
Also don't start it with the clutch in. You will wear out the thrust surface on the #1 main bearing. Always start in neutral.
I'll bet if you measure voltage between the battery terminals when you start it cold and work out from there you will see it drop to about 9V somewhere along the way. |
woah woah woah...what did i miss here? most modern cars have a clutch safety switch, so you cant start it in gear accidentally, but means you MUST push the clutch in to engine the starter....how come the bus is so different? i have NEVER heard that before, and if so, would love to do the right procedure here...
mind explaining a bit further pretty please? |
It is probably a "safety" issue to prevent you from launching forward. I never start my bus with the clutch in. Dont know why but that is how I have done it since I discovered there was no need to have the clutch in. I would like to hear an explination also. _________________ 1966 Velvet Green Standard |
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ncstagger Samba Member
Joined: June 04, 2010 Posts: 284 Location: Fayetteville, NC
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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pushing the clutch in to start puts the strain on your thrust bearing which is dry before startup so it will wear quicker as SGKent posted above.
it will also allow the starter motor a bit easier time spinning but since starters are a lot cheaper to replace than main bearings its probably wiser to make sure its in neutral and start without pushing the clutch in. _________________ 71 Westy Tintop - 1600 DP 34PICT3/009 - Pastel White
Resto thread here: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=549162
"Take your most realistic time frame and dollar amount.. then add half of that amount. When you get that total... double it. Only then will you be in the ballpark." - sofaking |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12727 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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This is all good info. Since the owners manual recommends starting with the clutch in during cold weather, I've have been doing it the last few months. Even my fast idle is rough for the first few seconds when it's less than 40* outside in neutral, clutch out. I figured if it helps me in one of the warmest climate zones, chances are the OP is colder right now.
It's a bummer that there is no real discussion about driving techniques like that. Someone mentioned that "drive" and its derivatives are not searchable. Tips like that enlighten us even when we think we're totally certain
Edit: This seems to be ignored, from the OP:
Quote: |
It does this even with a fully charged known good battery. Later when leaving work it's not as bad and if only left a shorter time it starts like nothing is wrong, starter motor spins fast, starts first time. |
_________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50351
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:12 am Post subject: |
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I have always started all my vehicles with the tranny in neutral and the clutch pedal depressed. In the winter it takes 15 seconds or longer before I can let the clutch out before the cold tranny will not stall the engine after a cold start so there is not way I am going to put that kind of extra load on the starter by leaving the clutch engaged.
How is the thrust bearing going to suddenly magically become devoid of oil? At 20°F motor oil is so thick you couldn't possibly hurt the thrust bearing unless it has sat dripping down for weeks or months before hand. |
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Simbo Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2013 Posts: 4 Location: Wirral, England
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies people. Just for everyones' info my car is a 1970 1500 Beetle, I do start with the clutch in (but won't be any longer, it'll be in neutral), and I have no headlights or radio on when I start. The temp here at the moment is 0*c or 32*f in the morning going up to 7*c or 44*f in the day and the oil is 10w40. I'll try to test the battery in the morning when I start for work although the battery I'm using was new 12 months ago and the one it replaced was a known good one which had been starting the 1303 I had at the time no problem. I only replaced it because I thought that was the problem. Also if the battery was bad surely it would still sound flat when starting later in the day but it doesn't. Could it be a problem with the starter motor? _________________ Never lose faith in the colour of the sky. |
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nathansnathan Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2008 Posts: 1671
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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Wildthings wrote: |
I have always started all my vehicles with the tranny in neutral and the clutch pedal depressed. In the winter it takes 15 seconds or longer before I can let the clutch out before the cold tranny will not stall the engine after a cold start so there is not way I am going to put that kind of extra load on the starter by leaving the clutch engaged.
How is the thrust bearing going to suddenly magically become devoid of oil? At 20°F motor oil is so thick you couldn't possibly hurt the thrust bearing unless it has sat dripping down for weeks or months before hand. |
I'm with you on this, can feel that you have to give it more gas to keep it running when you are spinning the cold oil in the trans on top of what's in the engine. I've got carbs though. Letting the clutch out, it is "stage 2" warmup. Once cht gets to over 100 then reverse but I still have to break heel toe to keep from stalling until it's run some.
Sounds like a bunch of factors with the op's problem. Many things add up to make cold starting harder. Fuel atomization, as fuel condenses on runners, colder oil makes for slower cranking which likes retarded timing. I am no FI expert though. |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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To those who are pressing your pedals in - I used to love you guys cause I got your motors often with bad thrust surfaces. Below 10 F you probably do need to push it in but let it out once it starts. SIMBO is in England. Last time I checked the Gulf Stream flowed by England and they don't see the kind of weather you see Wildthings. Hsi temps are in the 40's when cold. From what I read, their 100 year low is like 20 - 27F. We have that here every night here in the Sacramento Valley this time of the year.
Wildthings - your real problem is that progressive you have on the bus. My 1971 with a stock carb and my 1977 with stock FI had no problem at 10F and above turning the trans in neutral when cold once it started. That is what the fast idle circuit is for.
Also - in 400,000 miles on my 1971, I never wore out a starter. Solenoids yes, starters no. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50351
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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SGKent wrote: |
To those who are pressing your pedals in - I used to love you guys cause I got your motors often with bad thrust surfaces. Below 10 F you probably do need to push it in but let it out once it starts. SIMBO is in England. Last time I checked the Gulf Stream flowed by England and they don't see the kind of weather you see Wildthings. Hsi temps are in the 40's when cold. From what I read, their 100 year low is like 20 - 27F. We have that here every night here in the Sacramento Valley this time of the year.
Wildthings - your real problem is that progressive you have on the bus. My 1971 with a stock carb and my 1977 with stock FI had no problem at 10F and above turning the trans in neutral when cold once it started. That is what the fast idle circuit is for.
Also - in 400,000 miles on my 1971, I never wore out a starter. Solenoids yes, starters no. |
I don't see all that much difference in the first few seconds between my carb fuel VWs (progressive or stock) and my later FI rigs. Let the clutch out in the first few seconds and the engine is very likely to stall because of the heavy tranny load, while I have yet to ever have a VW case that had a problem with the thrust bearing. I have somewhere around 2/3 of a million miles on waterboxes, 300K on Type 4s and a couple of hundred thousand miles on Type 1s. The engine oil is so thick at 20° that the chance of metal to metal contact on the thrust bearing has to be nil. |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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Wildthings wrote: |
SGKent wrote: |
To those who are pressing your pedals in - I used to love you guys cause I got your motors often with bad thrust surfaces. Below 10 F you probably do need to push it in but let it out once it starts. SIMBO is in England. Last time I checked the Gulf Stream flowed by England and they don't see the kind of weather you see Wildthings. Hsi temps are in the 40's when cold. From what I read, their 100 year low is like 20 - 27F. We have that here every night here in the Sacramento Valley this time of the year.
Wildthings - your real problem is that progressive you have on the bus. My 1971 with a stock carb and my 1977 with stock FI had no problem at 10F and above turning the trans in neutral when cold once it started. That is what the fast idle circuit is for.
Also - in 400,000 miles on my 1971, I never wore out a starter. Solenoids yes, starters no. |
I don't see all that much difference in the first few seconds between my carb fuel VWs (progressive or stock) and my later FI rigs. Let the clutch out in the first few seconds and the engine is very likely to stall because of the heavy tranny load, while I have yet to ever have a VW case that had a problem with the thrust bearing. I have somewhere around 2/3 of a million miles on waterboxes, 300K on Type 4s and a couple of hundred thousand miles on Type 1s. The engine oil is so thick at 20° that the chance of metal to metal contact on the thrust bearing has to be nil. |
It might be time for an AAR adjustment or replacement if the trans pulls it that far down. I won't argue with you over 10 degrees F with most oils, however he is in the 40's so I do think something other than thick trans oil is the issue for him. Any battery should crank the engine over at 40 degrees. Batteries work worse when cold and having sat overnight. He warms it up by driving it, puts a surface charge on the battery and it works great. Let it sit overnight and cool down, problems. Reminds me of a RV battery I had once for a boat. It would work fine off the charger or out on the lake but let it sit overnight without a charger on it and very weak. Bought a new battery and it cranked fine. We also don't know how he is testing it with a "known good battery." It could be with jumper cables. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Stuartzickefoose Samba Post Whore
Joined: February 07, 2008 Posts: 10350 Location: SoCal for now...
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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my bus idle doesnt change enough to matter when i let the clutch out. i let my foot off right away after burning up my last TO bearing to quick (from other issues) so now i get my foot off the clutch as soon as i can. i have had to many cars start in gear to not put my foot on the clutch....so ill take the risk and fix it when i rebuild it myself. _________________ Stuart Zickefoose
2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual
206-841-7324
[email protected] |
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ncstagger Samba Member
Joined: June 04, 2010 Posts: 284 Location: Fayetteville, NC
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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Wildthings wrote: |
I have always started all my vehicles with the tranny in neutral and the clutch pedal depressed. In the winter it takes 15 seconds or longer before I can let the clutch out before the cold tranny will not stall the engine after a cold start so there is not way I am going to put that kind of extra load on the starter by leaving the clutch engaged.
How is the thrust bearing going to suddenly magically become devoid of oil? At 20°F motor oil is so thick you couldn't possibly hurt the thrust bearing unless it has sat dripping down for weeks or months before hand. |
The oil starts dripping as soon as the motor shuts off and it ain't 20 degrees when that happens. _________________ 71 Westy Tintop - 1600 DP 34PICT3/009 - Pastel White
Resto thread here: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=549162
"Take your most realistic time frame and dollar amount.. then add half of that amount. When you get that total... double it. Only then will you be in the ballpark." - sofaking |
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Hoody Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2007 Posts: 1948
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds like your relief valve is gummed up. Check the set up....wallls get worn...springs lose their tension. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50351
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:01 am Post subject: |
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ncstagger wrote: |
The oil starts dripping as soon as the motor shuts off and it ain't 20 degrees when that happens. |
I will agree with what you said, but say that there is still going to be plenty of oil in the bearing to lubricate it even if it sits for weeks. What oil is left is going to be nice and thick at cold startup.
I thought the idea that a VW engine was so flimsy that it would be damaged by pressing in the clutch at start up was hilarious when I first heard it and I have seen nothing that has changed my opinion. |
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Wasted youth Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012 Posts: 5134 Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:46 am Post subject: |
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Anyone ever found out what happend with the original theme of this thread? Did the slow starter/difficult start when cold problem get resolved What was the problem? |
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nathansnathan Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2008 Posts: 1671
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:21 am Post subject: |
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I tried it without pushing in the clutch this morning and gave up on attempt #5. It's not worth a dead battery or all the wear to the engine turning it around with the starter before oil pressure builds. It read 40F on the dd cht guage.
It would be nice to retard ignition timing at start up based on temperature, or to have a choke, or an in-cab idle adjustment. If there were a plug by my parking, I'd have a oil pan heater. |
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