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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:18 pm    Post subject: 30R14 fuel line Reply with quote

Went to into an O'Reilly's today because I wanted some new fuel line for a carbureted rig, figuring I would have to pay the price for lined FI hose. A very unpleasant counter person told me I would need to give him a make and model for him to look up the hose for me. After some arguing I got him to let me go back to where they kept the hose and then he stormed off letting me know that in his opinion I didn't know diddle squat about fuel line and probably much of anything else. Looking over the spools on the shelves there was no FI hose to be seen, but my eyes pretty quickly picked up some rolls of hose that look better quality than the rest. On reading the label it said it was lined hose, but not for FI use. It was specced as SAE 30R14. The rolls for the various sizes were all brand new and I don't think they had ever sold any of it. When I took a roll up front the counterman let me know that I should be buying the cheaper junk hose and that the price of the 30R14 would shock me, but the $2 a foot he quoted me for the 1/4 inch size seemed reasonable.

Since I just needed hose for a low pressure carburated engine, the 50psi maximum working pressure was fine and I suspect it will last for many years. This hose, which the counter person though overpriced was less than a third of the price per foot that I had been quoted for the 30R9 FI rated hose down the street at NAPA.

The 30R14 is probably fine for suction lines and after the regulator return lines on FI rigs as well. As far as I am concerned they should just throw all the "regular" 30R7 low pressure hose in the dumpster as it is not safe to use with today's fuel, not even for return lines as the stuff plain melts when in contact with today's fuels.

Searching for 30R14 online showed that NAPA can at least get the 30R14 hose even if your local store isn't carrying it at present.
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webwalker Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take a look at the Gates Barricade brand with the green stripe on it. Cost will be higher but the hose won't get et from inside out.

A month ago I wished I had and OReilly's nearby. After hearing your comments, I'm sort of glad I don't.

M
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nathansnathan
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:29 am    Post subject: Re: 30R14 fuel line Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
As far as I am concerned they should just throw all the "regular" 30R7 low pressure hose in the dumpster as it is not safe to use with today's fuel


30R7 is the rating for low pressure, usually viton-lined, fuel line which is ethanol resistant. 30R14 may be immersible as well, or vapor resistant perhaps. There are a number of 30RX ratings that all seem to mean resistance to "today's fuels". I've seen 30R6, 7, 9, 10, and 14. I haven't been able to find a comprehensive list of what all the ratings are though. Question
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kreemoweet
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What the heck are you guys putting in your tanks? I've been using J30R7 fuel hose in my bus for years, Not
the slightest problem. I disconnect and check condition at least once a year. In my area they do put alcohol
in the gas every winter, it makes the exhaust reek.
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webwalker Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kreemoweet wrote:
What the heck are you guys putting in your tanks? I've been using J30R7 fuel hose in my bus for years, Not
the slightest problem. I disconnect and check condition at least once a year. In my area they do put alcohol
in the gas every winter, it makes the exhaust reek.


As an ex-denizen of Seattle, I'll say 'enjoy it while it lasts.' In the mid-Atlantic region we are 15%Ethanol 24x7x365. And if the current administration has its way, you'll be running it year round, too.

What we're putting in our tanks is what is available.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kreemoweet wrote:
What the heck are you guys putting in your tanks? I've been using J30R7 fuel hose in my bus for years, Not
the slightest problem. I disconnect and check condition at least once a year. In my area they do put alcohol
in the gas every winter, it makes the exhaust reek.


Like I said, 30R7 is resistant to ethanol. It is the hose that does not have these sae ratings, most of the hose that you will find, that is no good.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nathansnathan wrote:
kreemoweet wrote:
What the heck are you guys putting in your tanks? I've been using J30R7 fuel hose in my bus for years, Not
the slightest problem. I disconnect and check condition at least once a year. In my area they do put alcohol
in the gas every winter, it makes the exhaust reek.


Like I said, 30R7 is resistant to ethanol. It is the hose that does not have these sae ratings, most of the hose that you will find, that is no good.


The hose I am replacing is less than two year old 30R7. The stuff is swollen up and as soft as can be at this point. I only used the 30R7 on the suction side of the system and used 30R9 between the pump and the carburetor. After parking my Thing with a full tank of gas last fall, I was greeted with an empty tank when I went to fire it up this past week. The hose had swollen and become loose on the fitting at the front of the tunnel and leaked all the fuel out, washing off the undercoat as it did so. The stuff in the engine compartment was also swollen so bad it didn't seal against the tube feeding into the compartment causing a suction leak when I tried to start the engine. No more 30R7 for me, willing to pass on the engine fire it's use might cause.

Considering the cost of the lost gas, it would have been cheaper for me to have run 30R9 throughout. I will give the 30R14 a try and see how it last, if it doesn't prove itself it will be straight 30R9 for me, suction or pressure, even if the pressure is only 3 or 4 psi.
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kreemoweet
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's hard to imagine anyone even considering the use of non-rated fuel hose. I am shocked.

Also, everyone should always keep in mind the possibility that brand markings and ratings on products are
actually counterfeit. This is a huge problem these days. Always to be suspected when a product does not seem to
perform to reasonable expectations.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

webwalker wrote:


I don't have any financial interest in this: I'm looking for better solutions than we had 30 years ago.

The Gates Barricade hose is surprising affordable (2ft for $4) when you consider that there's nothing else out there that I've been able to find that is:

- CARB Approved
- R14 rated (run pretty much anything from moonshine rotgut to jet fuel through it, its rated for it.)
- Temp rated -40C to 125C
- working PSI 225

The data sheet from ContTech on the classic 7mm FI line (again thanks to Ratwell for doing the dirty work) http://www.ratwell.com/technical/FuelHoses/Datasheet211080.pdf
- lists fuels as just 'gasoline or diesel'
- operating temp of -35C to 90C
- 116 PSI proof pressure (different from working pressure)

By comparison, the Continental stuff everyone in the VW hobby resells is lucky to make an R7 rating. Meaning the 15% ethanol junk that is either coming or has already arrived at a pump near you is eating our hoses alive.

www.gates.com/barricade

I'm looking for a proactive thing to do, rather than just deciding to invest a benjamin in new fuel hoses every 12 months for the rest of my life. The Barricade hose seems like it has made huge strides toward making 'the burning bus' a bad memory, rather than an ongoing terror.

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wbrown45
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:25 am    Post subject: Re: 30R14 fuel line Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
Went to into an O'Reilly's today because I wanted some new fuel line for a carbureted rig, figuring I would have to pay the price for lined FI hose. A very unpleasant counter person told me I would need to give him a make and model for him to look up the hose for me. After some arguing I got him to let me go back to where they kept the hose and then he stormed off letting me know that in his opinion I didn't know diddle squat about fuel line and probably much of anything else. Looking over the spools on the shelves there was no FI hose to be seen, but my eyes pretty quickly picked up some rolls of hose that look better quality than the rest. On reading the label it said it was lined hose, but not for FI use. It was specced as SAE 30R14. The rolls for the various sizes were all brand new and I don't think they had ever sold any of it. When I took a roll up front the counterman let me know that I should be buying the cheaper junk hose and that the price of the 30R14 would shock me, but the $2 a foot he quoted me for the 1/4 inch size seemed reasonable.

Since I just needed hose for a low pressure carburated engine, the 50psi maximum working pressure was fine and I suspect it will last for many years. This hose, which the counter person though overpriced was less than a third of the price per foot that I had been quoted for the 30R9 FI rated hose down the street at NAPA.

The 30R14 is probably fine for suction lines and after the regulator return lines on FI rigs as well. As far as I am concerned they should just throw all the "regular" 30R7 low pressure hose in the dumpster as it is not safe to use with today's fuel, not even for return lines as the stuff plain melts when in contact with today's fuels.

Searching for 30R14 online showed that NAPA can at least get the 30R14 hose even if your local store isn't carrying it at present.

That's cool info about the hose. Personally I would have talked to the manager on duty about "Mr. Personality's" attitude. They need to know about how their customers are treated. I am pretty laid back, but in that business it is all about customer satisfaction and those crummy attitudes make me very irate. The O'Reilly's in my little town is a great place. Then again, most people in our little town are pretty nice. (cue the Mayberry whistling theme!) Wink
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cdennisg
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All of this great info, but it still doesn't answer the biggest question. Is it available in metric?
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cdennisg wrote:
All of this great info, but it still doesn't answer the biggest question. Is it available in metric?


Sure it is, 1/4 inch is 6.4mm and 5/16 is 7.9mm. Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 'metric' issue matters less than is made of here. The hose diameter stretches, on both metric and imperial sized hose.

You're using Stainless Steel ABA or GEMI clamps on pliable hose over steel fuel pipes. I wouldn't put hose that was TOO BIG for the pipe on my right, but hose that is 00.6mm undersized? That's why they stretch.

M
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

webwalker wrote:
The 'metric' issue matters less than is made of here. The hose diameter stretches, on both metric and imperial sized hose.

You're using Stainless Steel ABA or GEMI clamps on pliable hose over steel fuel pipes. I wouldn't put hose that was TOO BIG for the pipe on my right, but hose that is 00.6mm undersized? That's why they stretch.

M


VW was famous for stretching their hoses to fit over sometimes much larger nipples. Some vacuum hose got stretched to twice its original diameter. There are advantages to this. You get a small diameter hose, which is actually sized to your needs while you have a nipple which is large enough to be sturdy and not to likely to be damaged. On newer rigs that use the polyxxxx tubing you get the same advantage, small tubing, big fitting.

Also I think that sometimes VW used smaller diameter hose just for the cost savings. I have never measured them, but I think the fittings that VW used on their FI'd engines where 8mm while the hoses were just 7mm, either way 5/16 hose has made a suitable replacement when I have used it.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:


VW was famous for stretching their hoses to fit over sometimes much larger nipples. ... I have never measured them, but I think the fittings that VW used on their FI'd engines where 8mm while the hoses were just 7mm, either way 5/16 hose has made a suitable replacement when I have used it.


Concur. My plan (don't laugh, I always try to plan) is to replace all of the fuel hose on Ferd' (77 Deluxe) with the Gates Barricade, the Large vac hoses with GEEBEE, and the small vac hose with silicone hose. Here's the important part: each of these will be a different color.So you will be able to see, just by observation, what is what. I'm even considering having Kyle overhaul my FI harness in a (horrors!) non-stock color so that it sticks out like a sore thumb screaming "FI!" I'm in this for the fun, so I intend to make my maintenance items as pain free to deal with as possible. Color coding helps clear the mental clutter of all of the hose spaghetti and let you just focus on your area of diagnosis.

M
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

webwalker wrote:
The 'metric' issue matters less than is made of here. The hose diameter stretches, on both metric and imperial sized hose.

You're using Stainless Steel ABA or GEMI clamps on pliable hose over steel fuel pipes. I wouldn't put hose that was TOO BIG for the pipe on my right, but hose that is 00.6mm undersized? That's why they stretch.

M


So, what size standard hose will fit my stock type style engine without falling off? 1/4" is too big, I think. Not sure if I have seen 3/16" hose with the new rating. Is it best to flare the fuel fittings to make fuel line clamps have a better grip?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
nathansnathan wrote:
kreemoweet wrote:
What the heck are you guys putting in your tanks? I've been using J30R7 fuel hose in my bus for years, Not
the slightest problem. I disconnect and check condition at least once a year. In my area they do put alcohol
in the gas every winter, it makes the exhaust reek.


Like I said, 30R7 is resistant to ethanol. It is the hose that does not have these sae ratings, most of the hose that you will find, that is no good.


The hose I am replacing is less than two year old 30R7. The stuff is swollen up and as soft as can be at this point. I only used the 30R7 on the suction side of the system and used 30R9 between the pump and the carburetor. After parking my Thing with a full tank of gas last fall, I was greeted with an empty tank when I went to fire it up this past week. The hose had swollen and become loose on the fitting at the front of the tunnel and leaked all the fuel out, washing off the undercoat as it did so. The stuff in the engine compartment was also swollen so bad it didn't seal against the tube feeding into the compartment causing a suction leak when I tried to start the engine. No more 30R7 for me, willing to pass on the engine fire it's use might cause.

Considering the cost of the lost gas, it would have been cheaper for me to have run 30R9 throughout. I will give the 30R14 a try and see how it last, if it doesn't prove itself it will be straight 30R9 for me, suction or pressure, even if the pressure is only 3 or 4 psi.



Where did you park?

A whole tank? The smell of gas must have been horrendous.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

udidwht wrote:


Where did you park?

A whole tank? The smell of gas must have been horrendous.


I parked it in Oregon and spent the winter in Arizona. Didn't smell a thing. When I got back and tried to start it, I at first thought someone had syphoned all the gas out, but when I dumped 5 gallons in I quickly knew something else was wrong.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cdennisg wrote:
webwalker wrote:
The 'metric' issue matters less than is made of here. The hose diameter stretches, on both metric and imperial sized hose.

You're using Stainless Steel ABA or GEMI clamps on pliable hose over steel fuel pipes. I wouldn't put hose that was TOO BIG for the pipe on my right, but hose that is 00.6mm undersized? That's why they stretch.

M


So, what size standard hose will fit my stock type style engine without falling off? 1/4" is too big, I think. Not sure if I have seen 3/16" hose with the new rating. Is it best to flare the fuel fittings to make fuel line clamps have a better grip?


Well, since you don't have your rig in your sig, I don't know what your 'stock style' is. For me, 1977 Bay with stock FI, my stock is 7mm. If you are carbed, your stock is going to be 5mm, or 3/16", which is the imperial size closest, but smaller than your 5mm stock ID.

See: http://mdmetric.com/tech/cvtcht.htm
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cdennisg
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

webwalker wrote:
cdennisg wrote:
webwalker wrote:
The 'metric' issue matters less than is made of here. The hose diameter stretches, on both metric and imperial sized hose.

You're using Stainless Steel ABA or GEMI clamps on pliable hose over steel fuel pipes. I wouldn't put hose that was TOO BIG for the pipe on my right, but hose that is 00.6mm undersized? That's why they stretch.

M


So, what size standard hose will fit my stock type style engine without falling off? 1/4" is too big, I think. Not sure if I have seen 3/16" hose with the new rating. Is it best to flare the fuel fittings to make fuel line clamps have a better grip?


Well, since you don't have your rig in your sig, I don't know what your 'stock style' is. For me, 1977 Bay with stock FI, my stock is 7mm. If you are carbed, your stock is going to be 5mm, or 3/16", which is the imperial size closest, but smaller than your 5mm stock ID.

See: http://mdmetric.com/tech/cvtcht.htm



Sorry, meant to say Type 1 when I asked the question. All of my stuff is type 1 powertrain. Splitties and early bays.
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