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VEGDRABBITS
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Joined: February 07, 2006
Posts: 56
Location: Saint Paul, MN
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 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:16 pm Post subject: 1970 Convertible top rebuild |
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After kicking it around for years, I'm finally making progress on the top for my 1970. I bought the vinyl top kit from Convertible Specialties a few years back (Vinyl to keep stock appearance) along with their pad kit and headliner. I'm going to try to stop and take pictures along the way because I know there are folks out there like me who dread this job and are scouring the internet for what precious little info there is. I began the job last fall with the teardown, stopping to take measurements and note the various layers and their order. It appears that my top is the original, with "horse-hair" padding. The major items I found were a broken intermediate bow weld, Bent intermediate bow, broken hinge pin, rusty front bow plates, rotten front bow. The good news is all the rest of the bows appear to be in good shape (the car sat in a shed all those years, so no moisture exposure), and the rusty parts are only surface deep, so should clean up with sandblasting. I ordered a new synthetic front bow and rear tack strip from Chuck's, along with all the hardware. The bows that I reused were first primed and then painted. The hardest part of the teardown was getting the millions of staples out. Here's the first batch of pics, and I'll add more as I go.
Original "horse-hair" pads...
Header bow layers of nastiness...
Reference for headliner positioning string...
Another shot of headliner string and side tension cable...
Broken Intermediate bow weld...
Header bow plate rust...
All done (mental note: need to cover C-pillar with headliner material)...
Goodbye 42 year old top!...
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70 Convertible
73 RD350 |
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VEGDRABBITS
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Joined: February 07, 2006
Posts: 56
Location: Saint Paul, MN
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, so that was a summary of where I left off before winter. I've been motivated to get back to work so I can have it ready for the (only  ) VW show we have here in MN in June.
Before paint I needed to address the broken weld and broken hinge pin. I had my friend Atom weld the intermediate bow after I cleaned up the metal around it. He is a metal magician, and did it in only a couple of minutes. The hinge pin was a bear. You can't actually see the break, but can detect it by wiggling the frame and feeling for a slight movement. Also, I noted the tell-tale frame peeking out when the old top was on, right in the area above the windows. I had to get the hinge red hot with a torch, then drive it out with a punch. Take care and support the frame well so you don't do more damage whacking away at it. You will be hitting hard! I got out my micrometer and measured 5/8" and thought simple, just go get a bolt or something with the same measurement. Wrong! Even with a tight fit, it still was just as loosey-goosey as the broken pin was. Hinges are held to very tight tolerances. What I found that worked was a VW bug (late) door hinge pin replacement (2nd oversize) available from Wolfsburg West. You have to heat the hinge again just to get the pin in, but when it's in, it's IN!. The whole hinge thing took about a day (excluding the time it took to run all over mic'ing bolts, then order and wait for the WW pin).
Replacement pin...
Next, I blasted the frame in the backyard with coal slag in a crappy gun hooked to a undersized compressor. It took forever, but was cheap. It did what I needed, got all rust removed. I hit the frame then with wire wheel/flapper disc/sanding wheel until I was satisfied. The rear window frame was small enough to bring to my friend Hai's house where he has a booth and large compressor, and I took that down to bare metal quickly. After drilling and countersinking the holes for the rear window tack strip (Chuck's) I shot it and the frame with self etching primer. Next will be a coat of regular primer, then black paint.
Rear frame with countersunk holes...
Shot with self-etching primer...
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70 Convertible
73 RD350
Last edited by VEGDRABBITS on Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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VEGDRABBITS
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Joined: February 07, 2006
Posts: 56
Location: Saint Paul, MN
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:38 am Post subject: rear window seal |
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I test-fitted the rear window tacking strip and put the rear window in it's seal and laid it in. The top to bottom looks real good (and measures under the 11.25" spec), but there is a larger gap on the sides (width-wise). I had read many places that the frame might get out of spec top to bottom, but never side to side. Any one else ever experience this? I'm not sure it will affect the installation, but I don't want to find out later when everything is stapled in!
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70 Convertible
73 RD350 |
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Cusser
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Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31361
Location: Hot Arizona
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VEGDRABBITS
Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2006
Posts: 56
Location: Saint Paul, MN
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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My old wood insert lays flush, and actually is in reusable shape. I got the synthetic one though to be safe. When I lay the window and seal inside the old wood insert I see the same difference in gap (tighter top to bottom, wider side to side). So perhaps I should just go forward and not think too hard about it. Still, with the synthetic I have the option of moving it ever so slightly in on the left and right sides, so would do it if I thought it would give the seal more purchase when the lip is rolled over. I will get some pics up showing the gap, maybe it is too much worry for nothing.
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70 Convertible
73 RD350 |
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VEGDRABBITS
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Joined: February 07, 2006
Posts: 56
Location: Saint Paul, MN
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:58 am Post subject: |
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So now that the painting is all done I laid the original wood insert back in the window frame, then checked the gap on the sides that I was concerned with...
Compare that gap to the larger one I noticed with the new synthetic tacking ring...
At this point I almost feel like reusing the wood insert, it is really in great shape. I couldn't do it though, so came up with a plan: I shimmed the sides ever so slighlty with a rubber strip (cut from a motorcycle innertube) and laid it down just along the curve on the sides of the frame. That kept the tacking ring off the frame just a bit while the adhesive set up and I drove the screws home. Here is the gap after the shimming...
As Chuck's instructions advised, I test-fit the window since now would be the best time to find out if there was a problem. Getting the lip of that seal round the frame sucks! I did it with a weed-whacker string and dish soap. If it was that hard on the bench, I can't imagine the frustration waiting for me when it goes in for real. The good news is that it fits great. I'm using the seal which contains a groove for the chrome trim because I want to keep the trim. I've heard that the "cal-look" replacement seal is a more pliable product with a longer lip, and therefore easier to install. As much as I want easy, I want that trim too so will try it the hard way first. I can always order that cal-look seal if I have to...
The last thing I accomplished yesterday since the weather was so nice, I went to my folks and got the car out of storage. The drive up was great, although it looks pretty rediculous with no top. I don't have a lot of room to work in my one-car garage, but if I keep it clean I should be able to operate.
Here is the painted frame waiting to get bolted up...
Next up: find a friend to help me lift the frame on so I don't scratch the paint! Also, I noticed the rear quarter windows are not perfectly aligned, so I need to correct that in order to get the frame and seal alignment all good.
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70 Convertible
73 RD350 |
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wayne1230cars
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Joined: April 05, 2010
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:57 am Post subject: |
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Good work VEGDRABBITS. I am enjoying this post. I have a 1970 VW convertible. It was originally Yukon yellow. When I restored the car back in 1986, I did everything myself except for the top and paint. I spent more on the top than I did on the engine rebuild, interior upholstery and complete paint job and new floor pans. My top was in pretty sad shape. The VW convertible top is a very high quality design. The padded headliner was a feature that a lot of convertibles did not have in those days. The top is major work and you are doing a great job on yours  . Keep posting!
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1960 beetle
1970 beetle convertible |
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VEGDRABBITS
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Joined: February 07, 2006
Posts: 56
Location: Saint Paul, MN
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:33 am Post subject: |
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Yes, very expensive. I bought my top kit three years ago, and have just now put in the final orders for the last bits and pieces. The benefit of spacing it all out is I kind of lose sight of the total cost. If I think hard, I get to a number, and it is over $1000. I didnt have to replace all the wood either, so pity anyone whose car was left out in the elements with a leaky top. Just when you think you have it all, another little cost comes up. For instance; spray adhesive, who knew it cost so much per can!
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70 Convertible
73 RD350 |
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VEGDRABBITS
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Joined: February 07, 2006
Posts: 56
Location: Saint Paul, MN
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 10:00 am Post subject: |
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Some baby steps were made last night. I test fit the synthetic header bow and was unable to get the screws to start into the threaded holes of the mounting plates. Looking from this angle you can see where the profile of the plate is not matching the bow, and some of the bow will need to be releived with a grinder. I couldn't find the gentle wheel for my grinder so had to move on for now. Also, I know there is metal impregnated into the molding, so not sure how much material I can take before I hit it. If I hit it, I will need to prime and paint the exposed metal since this will be rust prone area (judging from what was seen when I removed the original header).
In this shot you can see the profile, and it's pretty dang good. There is some side to side adjustment that I need to make, as I noticed the guide pins do not come down centered with their holes in the windshield frame. I had the same problem with the old top, so it is not a result of any work done on the frame. I also realized I needed to order the inserts for the holes in the windshield, I think they are rubber. I sent away to CIP1 for them so that will be another week. As far as adjustment goes, I'm not planning to go crazy on it until the top is on and everything us under tension.
In this shot you can see the quarter window alignment that needs to be resolved...
To rectify, I popped these two plugs and loosened the bolts. Then I gingerly tapped on a wood block down on the frame until it lined up with the front. Finally I lowered the top frame and pushed in on the window frame until it lined up with the row of holes that will eventually hold the seals to the top frame. I had to hold in on the frame while I tightened because it wants to push back out of alignment if not under inward pressure. After it was done I verified that it still cranks well.
After alignemnt, not perfect but as close as I could get...
Driver's side was good to go...
Finally I attached all the remaining pieces of wood. I need to figure out what of the wood needs to be covered in vinyl. I know the C pillar facings do, but thinking it might just need to be one or two sides of them, not all. Also, I was under the impression that a 1970 did not have inner C-pillar facings because I never took any off my frame, but now I'm not so sure. Does anyone with a 70 know if they have them? I don't see any holes where they would even mount, but I think the headliner needs to attach somewhere down in that area.
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70 Convertible
73 RD350 |
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VEGDRABBITS
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Joined: February 07, 2006
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Location: Saint Paul, MN
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 7:56 am Post subject: |
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Making progress slowly but surely. Making mistakes as well. The first mistake was one of the header bow screws punched through the front, so I had to grind it down (and paint so it wouldn't rust right away). The next mistake was covering the C-pillars with vinyl from Joann Fabrics before checking in the headliner kit bag. I had read that you have to buy extra headliner material to do all the random parts that might show. I couldn't find a source for the material, and figured solid white vinyl would work just as good. Well after it was cut, glued, dried, and bolted to the frame I pull out my headliner bag and find there is an extra yard of headliner material in there! After thinking about what to do, I decided to pull off what I did, and recover with the headliner material. Glad I did, but annoyed.
I finally received the little plastic frame alignment "cups" that go into the windshield frame. I should have got them earlier, as I have bonked the paint up there a few times while mocking things up.
Don't forget these "cups"...
C-pillars after covering with headliner material...
When I first installed the vinyl covered C-pillars, I had wrapped the vinyl down around the base of the pillar, under where the aluminum plate goes. I noticed then that the header bow now closed too far back from the windshield top. When I recovered with the headliner material, I did not wrap the bottom of the wood pillar, and now I'm getting perfect alignment. The moral of that story is the spacing between the C-pillar wood and the car body where those aluminum plates are is a major factor in header bow aligment. I originally tried loosening the frame mounting bolts to get the alignment corrected, and that did nothing.
Base plates that affect alignment...
Alignment after getting the c-pillar spacing right...
Before calling it a night I fed the front seal in between to see if it would fill the gap between the header bow and windshild. I think it is a pretty good fit. There is still the thickness of the top material to consider, and I also have the ability to thread the hooks in and out. For now I'm happy...
Next up is to add the webbing to the frame.
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70 Convertible
73 RD350 |
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VEGDRABBITS
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Joined: February 07, 2006
Posts: 56
Location: Saint Paul, MN
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 7:28 am Post subject: |
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This weekend was busy, and I got a lot done. First I spent some considerable hours spacing the bows and clamping the webbing. This is such an important step I wanted to measure over and over until I was sure. I used clamps to hold the position, then a combination of methods to secure it. On the rear tacking strip (bolted to the car) I marked where I wanted it to go, then took off the wood and used screws with finishing washers to hold it to the outside of the wood. This hopefully will push the webbing as far to the outside as possible, which should help project the window outwards and avoid the sunken-window problem I've read about. This corresponds to the staple marks I saw in the wood from the original, they were also on the outside. On the rear bow (above window) I used staples. On the main bow I pilot drilled small holes, then used screws with finishing washers. On the rear intermediate bow I poked holes in the webbing and ran two zip ties through, and on the front intermediate bow I used spray adhesive and zip ties again. Interestingly Chuck's webbing is made to run all the way to the front intermediate bow, when originally it would only have gone to the main bow. I had another set of burlap webbing that only would have gone to the main bow, but I figure if Chuck designed them differently, it must be for good reason, so used his. I was able to use the other webbing for a different purpose.
Next I clamped up the headliner. I put a small piece of masking tape where I figured the center of each bow was, then measured to find the exact center and marked the tape with a pencil. The headliner was chalked along it's center. I stopped there for the night because I knew it was going to be 75 and sunny the next day, and wanted to do the final positioning out in the sun so I could stretch it as much as possible.
In the sun I was able to get each listing much closer to each bow, so it was definitely worth waiting. I started with the header bow and just did a few staples along the face of the bow. I decided that the staples for the front of the pad cover would also hold the headliner in place, and I didn't want to crowd the groove in the bow with too many staples. After the pad is in I plan to remove these staples along the face and cut back the excess material for a smooth appearance along the bow front. Next I did the rear body tacking. I found that the original wood is super hard, and I was bending staples. I switched to upholstery tacks, and the went in nice with a hammer. I also used the extra burlap webbing I had to smooth the transition and prevent tear-out.
I used 3M "Super Adhesive" on the listings, and that stuff is amazing. Try to lay it down exactly where you want it the first time, because trying to lift and reposition is hard. I had a can of the Permatex stuff that is also available in auto stores, but this 3M stuff is way better. When you are stretching the listings over the bow, keep sticking your head into the car and watch the seam area for waves and wiggles. A little bit of tugging, or loosening makes a huge difference in appearance below. The last thing I did was clamp the window frame into position. I was having trouble convincing myself that it was level, and spaced right, so I called it a day. I'll have to get pumped up for the window cut-in. If I screw that up I'll be pretty mad at this point.
Here's the results from below. I decided that I'm not going to mention any wrinkles. As the installer I will always notice them, but there is no reason to tell anyone else, in hope that they will be overlooked! Also, there is still the side tensioning to do, and rear window, which could change things... hopefully for the better!
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70 Convertible
73 RD350 |
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webdawg
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Location: Kingman, Arizona
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Q-Dog
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VEGDRABBITS
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Joined: February 07, 2006
Posts: 56
Location: Saint Paul, MN
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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Here is an update on the padding. I got the top pad installed, and it was pretty straightforward. The cover is made up of a burlap base, vinyl sides, and cloth top. The foam pad is smooth on top, but underneath you can see there is additional later along the outside, with relief contours where the bows go. I got lucky and didn't need to cut the foam at all, it seems to be a perfect fit. I chose the Permatex spray adhesive because it's initial tack strength is low. If I used the 3M, I'm not sure I would have been able to make adjustments after it was laid down. It is pretty huge to manuever, and I dind't need to make it more of a struggle than it already is. Plus, I figure the adhesive does not need to be as strong in this application, compared to the headliner where it needs to fight gravity. I ran the staples pretty thick along the header bow, knowing that they would be providing additional tacking for the headliner beneath. I also used the handy upholstery tacks at the corners. Same method was used along the rear. In the rear I went with fewer spaced out staples though, knowing I'd be coming back with more for the corner pads. I also used several tacks along the corners of the rear bow.
Next is the final window positioning and cut-in. Does anyone have advice for where to measure from, or how to ensure it is level, centered, etc?
Remember the foam is upside-down in the pic below for your reference, don't glue it in this way!
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70 Convertible
73 RD350 |
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Boble
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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Respect!
Really, really nice work! This tread should be a sticky! |
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VEGDRABBITS
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Joined: February 07, 2006
Posts: 56
Location: Saint Paul, MN
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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Better wait to see if I don't screw something up along the way! I'm really sweating the window. Since it is round, and the body is round, I'm struggling to find reference points to measure from. My friend had an idea to find a straight reference point on the body, like the bumper, set up a laser level and jack the car to be level, then make some reference dots on the window frame to shoot the level across. It might be overkill, but I can borrow the level so it doesn't cost anything to try. I'm hoping to pick it up from him tomorrow.
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73 RD350 |
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fred69vert
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 11:06 am Post subject: |
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I'm going to warn you and hope it's not too late. I have a nice top on my 69 'vert. Real nice. Except - the tear in the headliner just above the rear window. PO said that it was too tight. Here's what I do know:
When the top is up, I can pull the headliner pieces together, when it's down the tear is wide open.
Don't know how to do it, but make sure the headliner has enough "slack" to allow you to drop the top without damage.
Wish I could figure out how to repair mine wihout stripping the whole top down.
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I'm not losing my hair, it's just retired and relocating further south.
1969 VW convertible, "Heidi" |
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Q-Dog
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 11:43 am Post subject: |
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I would center and level the window to the car, not to the ground. For me, the easiest way is to find the center of the car and the center of the window frame. Measure out an equal distance each side of your center mark and then space the frame up equally from those two points.
Measure, measure, measure. Put a piece of masking tape on the body over where you think the center is, then measure each way to known matching points on either side of the body. Mark the center, then measure some more to make sure your mark is accurate.
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Brian
'69 Dune Buggy
'69 Beetle Convertible
'70 Beetle |
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VEGDRABBITS
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Joined: February 07, 2006
Posts: 56
Location: Saint Paul, MN
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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You're not too late Fred, thanks for the heads up. I'm not sure how to approach that situation. Perhaps I can spray glue the headliner to the window frame but not cut, then see what happens to it when I fold the top down. I was reluctant to spray glue the frame to the headliner because of bleed through though. More to worry about!
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70 Convertible
73 RD350 |
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VEGDRABBITS
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Joined: February 07, 2006
Posts: 56
Location: Saint Paul, MN
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 9:56 am Post subject: |
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Can anyone recommend a preferred order of assembly: either cut the headliner and attach to window frame, then cut top cover and tack to window frame... OR the reverse, wait on cutting in the headliner and first finish the top covering and cut-in and attach the cover to the window, then attach headliner? (confusing? hard to describe, sorry). I'm leaning towards finishing the top cover first, and tacking it to the window frame, then finishing with the headliner tacking to window. My thery is that will help keep the window from sinking in, as the headliner won't be already tensoining in the window when I pull out to meet the cover. I've found examples of people doing it each way, so am stumped.
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