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ftp2leta
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope this tread will be on the sticky, so far it as been constructive and very well behave, one of the best conversion thread so far. Honest opinion from both side, pros and con. Very well done so far. I still have hope that there is good and honest people in this crazy world we live in.
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Kopasz
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dixoncj wrote:
hankster2 wrote:
For me arguing the power numbers between the 2.2/2.5L and the Zetec was arguing the color of the flood water. It's hard for me to choose one over the other based on HP when there's an SVX and a turbo out there to be had. If HP were my end-all goal I'd go one of those routes.

The big question for me was: What technology/platform did I want to be married to going forward?

I tried to remove "feeling" from the equation and stick with whatever factual data I could deem relevant to me. For example things like "Fords are great" and "A boxer engine came out so a boxer engine should go back in" were left at the doorstep.

Instead I went about pricing engines and replacement parts and trying to get a feel for how the "market" for that platform might look in - let's say 10 years.

For me it came down to:
- Any used engine I acquire will have an unknown history so in a worst case scenario a replacement zetec could be acquired much more cheaply.
- For now I at least have the option of a reasonably priced 0-mile Zetec.
- The Zetec owner-base is significantly larger and the engines are newer meaning it will likely be a more supported platform going forward.
- The Zetec technology offered a lower potential for failure based on things like 1) non-interference design 2) currently a very low history of major issues (for example head gasket failure, piston slap, oil consumption)
- Potential for power upgrade without replacing the engine should I decide the power is significantly inadequate. Yes, I had to put all my eggs in Bostig's basket on this one assuming that the turbo option wouldn't drop into limbo. Of course this works both ways because I was also excited to see that Bostig had a published and aggressive vision of where they were taking this platform in the future. I didn't really see that with the Subaru platform.

To me these are the things that make a conversion more successful. Not which one develops a bit more power than the other. Alternators, exhaust, power steering pump, and even the engine will probably all have to be replaced at some point. I figure in 2020 it will be much easier to source a reasonable mileage Zetec than a 2.2/2.5 Subie.

For the most part you get used to what you drive... horsepower-wise. Either option is a big step up from stock but for me the differences between the two options themselves is too incremental to be the basis for such a large decision.

On the "boxer vs inline" debate: It's true most cars are spec'ed with inline engines because a single inline engine can more easily be fit into a lineup of different cars, not because they're in some way a superior design. The one thing I have noticed though is that (while I've never worked on a Subaru conversion) I find working on the Zetec far easier than working on the old WBX'er. There's significantly more access to most points of the engine so that's sold me on the "inline vs boxer" debate. I wouldn't trade whatever supposed lack of smoothness that the Zetec is generating (that I've never in any way noticed) for that clean and accessible engine bay.

I'll also say that I fully understand anyone who chooses the Subaru option. It's not without it's merits and I considered it strongly for quite some time. One advantage I wrestled with is that the Zetec is married to a single conversion supplier whereas the Subaru conversion has multiple suppliers with more longevity/stability.


---This is precisely why I will one day go with a Bostig conversion in my 91 Westy. I have a friend with one down here in Charleston and it's just hugely impressive. Reliability, replaceability and completeness of product. If I break down in Deliverance country, Baja or Alaska, replacement parts are an Autozone away. With a wife and kids in the van with me, it just makes the most sense.


i agree with both of these posts. couldn't have explained my position/decision better.
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Kopasz
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ftp2leta wrote:
I hope this tread will be on the sticky, so far it as been constructive and very well behave, one of the best conversion thread so far. Honest opinion from both side, pros and con. Very well done so far. I still have hope that there is good and honest people in this crazy world we live in.


this too; good point ben.
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ftp2leta
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is my (EX) van (I so don't need more job... just having fun here), climbing hill after hill on cruise control. I did my best wile driving and filming. At the end you see a big truck on hazard having a hard time climbing the hill. The 2.5L dont even sweat at all... where any stock engine would start dying.


Link


Need more proof? I think this vid is speaking by itself.

Like I said before, the 2.5L will push your heavy van like a normal van in any road condition. You guys still don't get it after so many years.

Ok, enough of being polite now.
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Rouge
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Subaru 2.5l common symptoms:

Overheating, often when slowing or stopped after extended high load driving. The overheating can be seemingly random and sporadic.
Bubbles in coolant overflow reservoir, immediately after running.
Sludgy residue in coolant overflow tank.
Hydrocarbons in coolant overflow tank, this is tested by a mechanic with specialized equipment and is not evident visually.
Sweet" smell after operating engine and then stopping.
External fluid leakage (green) visible on engine or below car.
Slowly dropping coolant level due to leakage.

Source :
http://users.sisna.com/ignatius/subaru/headgasket.html

Don't forget to bring water !
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Subarugears
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^^^ Massively outdated information.
Subaru sell hundreds of thousands of these engines in cars every year and they are some of the most reliable cars and drivetrains on the planet.
You don't think they have undergone improvement and refinement over the years?
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rouge wrote:
Subaru 2.5l common symptoms:

Overheating, often when slowing or stopped after extended high load driving. The overheating can be seemingly random and sporadic.
Bubbles in coolant overflow reservoir, immediately after running.
Sludgy residue in coolant overflow tank.
Hydrocarbons in coolant overflow tank, this is tested by a mechanic with specialized equipment and is not evident visually.
Sweet" smell after operating engine and then stopping.
External fluid leakage (green) visible on engine or below car.
Slowly dropping coolant level due to leakage.

Source :
http://users.sisna.com/ignatius/subaru/headgasket.html

Don't forget to bring water !


Hmmm. So you bumped this thread from the dead yesterday with a rude and tasteless comment about the dialogue going on here. And now today you are on here again - this time posting out-of-context information that you cribbed from a Google search about a topic you obviously don't have any first-hand knowledge about. Leaking head gaskets were never a big problem with the SOHC EJ25 engine, and the later style head gaskets have eliminated the issue.

D
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ftp2leta
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rouge wrote:

Overheating, often when slowing or stopped after extended high load driving. The overheating can be seemingly random and sporadic.
Bubbles in coolant overflow reservoir, immediately after running.
Sludgy residue in coolant overflow tank.
Hydrocarbons in coolant overflow tank, this is tested by a mechanic with specialized equipment and is not evident visually.
Sweet" smell after operating engine and then stopping.
External fluid leakage (green) visible on engine or below car.
Slowly dropping coolant level due to leakage.


Sorry to say but your description sound like your talking about a VW boxer. Smile
Source: me

Head gasket are not a VW, Subaru, Honda.... problem, they are simply called maintenance on 4 cyl engine.

Even with VW boxer, if the job is done well it will last, especially with new head.

My 02 Legacy was a 1 owner car. I saw all invoice (not many), it as now 120k mile, sound great, no oil consumption and head gasket where never done. I just did the T belt and it was showing bad sign of cracking. I'm pushing the head gasket job, for now it as no sign of leak (internal or external) .

My girlfriend Forester has piston slap, badly, sound like a diesel engine.
No sign of head gasket problem, same millage, just did T-belt also. No oil consumption at all.

Earlier head design:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The late (06 +) have a new head design, new pistons (piston slap is gone), new head gasket that can be use on earlier 2.5L.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



the only thing that remain almost untouched since 1990 is the short block.

Subaru don't drop valve seat, don't have hydro lifter and don't need it, have solid rocker system, solid valve. Head don't warp (to short).
Apart from the old piston slap problem the short block is a tank.

So yes, one day they may need head gasket. Easily done with engine remaining in the van. 3.5 hours job including new T-belt, idlers and tensionner.

For the average conversion owner it should take about 10 years before you start thinking about that.

I amaze myself lately for staying very polite and constructive...
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r39o
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EVERY engine needs prep before installing.

I ALWAYS do a leak down test before a random engine is considered.

You gamble on oil pressure.....if you can not run it before surgery.

Then ALL the external stuff is gone over.

I spent $700 wholesale on new external service items on my Subaru engine before I declared it ready to install.

So on those engines known to have head gasket issues, you change them.

You avoid engines that tend to slap pistons or you stick better pistons in.

(We have a slappy 2.5 that got yanked out of a conversion which will go in the dune buggy....who cares about some more noise for a car like that?)

You just must put fresh service parts on an engine unless you know it has real low miles (like Benny cherry picks.)
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kuchiman
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just found out my engine is low compression, so glad to find this thread as I'm considering the options; the discussions been very informative. For what its worth, I took a little time to chart a comparison of the Subaru 2.5 to Bostig Turbo.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This chart was eyeballed based on those available on the Bostig website and the Subaru forum mentioned earlier in this thread: http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/subaru-installation.

In light of the phenomenal gas prices these days, another consideration I originally thought was significant is gas mileage and was surprised to see that only HeftySmurf reported on that in this thread. I wanted to try to evaluate if there's a significant difference between the engines and then put it in perspective in terms of cost.

Theres a handful of relevant posts on the Whats your gas mileage? thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=136963&highlight=fuel+economy. Given the variability in responses, I assumed an average of 20 MPG for the Su2.5. My Tahoe buddy reported gas mileage for his bubbletop syncro dropped from 18-19 to 15-16 when he installed the turbo on his Bostig.

So assuming a 5 MPG difference between the engines, and assuming $0.25 difference between regular and premium needed for the Bosturb what does this mean in terms of cost for a typical roadtrip? I figured a 300 mile roundtrip to Bishop to cost $25 more for the Bosturb [$4.00/gal(300mi/20MPG)-$4.25/gal(300mi/15MPG)]. Scale this up to a 1500 mile trip and the Su2.5 would be $125 less.

So if the cost of the install is the same, then the gas mileage difference is not that big a deal. For those such as myself who lack the skills (or is it the confidence?) to self install a Sub2.5, probly makes sense to self install a Bosturb, cuz for among the other reasons mentioned in this thread, you'll be paying (roughly) the same price as a pro to install a Sub2.5. Plus if you don't have all the cash now, you can sacrifice power and phase in the turbo over time (and save money running e85 when you can find it). However, if you have the skills (or the time to gain them) to self install a low mile Su2.5, then you could be well ahead if you can find one at a reasonable price and you have good luck not experiencing any of the problems others have reported.


Last edited by kuchiman on Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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bugger101
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

here take a look at this, it's not the dohc but it's pretty cool Cool


Link

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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My experience is many if not most people will first privately decide on their conversion of choice based on deeper personal partisan biases, then develop presumptive and challengable laundry lists of supporting reasons with incomplete stats and charts to self-verify their choice as sort of a self-rightious post-decision mental floss.

Some will be more influenced by their locale and what's more readily available, affordable and popular ... a path of least resistence so to speak.

Fortunately there's nothing really wrong with all that because both engines are quite good, can perform similarly under many circumstances with some noted specialty differences. It's the latter that should really be a driving force along with a wide range of other personal considerations based on what one wants a conversion to do in relation to their intended driving style and purpose.

Fear of peripheral contentions such as availability of parts and engines in the future are non-issues as there is strong evidence both will be sufficiently supplied and available.

I've personally been driving three rigs with subie 2.5L convers for quite some time now with a fourth stock rig possibly getting a zetec when the time comes, all based on how I intend to use and drive, not on which is better.
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WestyBob wrote:
My experience is many if not most people will first privately decide on their conversion of choice based on deeper personal partisan biases, then develop presumptive and challengable laundry lists of supporting reasons with incomplete stats and charts to self-verify their choice as sort of a self-rightious post-decision mental floss.

Some will be more influenced by their locale and what's more readily available, affordable and popular ... a path of least resistence so to speak.

Fortunately there's nothing really wrong with all that because both engines are quite good, can perform similarly under many circumstances with some noted specialty differences. It's the latter that should really be a driving force along with a wide range of other personal considerations based on what one wants a conversion to do in relation to their intended driving style and purpose.

Fear of peripheral contentions such as availability of parts and engines in the future are non-issues as there is strong evidence both will be sufficiently supplied and available.


+1

I have a 1988 Full Westy 2WD (4800# with 2+gear and full fuel) and am running a Zetec... It is a good engine, easy to work on, but like everything else it still has quirks. On the current tank of fuel I am averaging 19mpg and that is mostly in town driving. The van will get up and cruise at 70 if I want it to, but I usually run it around 65. My tires are 215/65 R16 Nokians.

The conversion that I have belonged to HeftySmurf at one point and after it was installed correctly I have to say it has run very well. I think that the conversion is best suited to the Weekender or Passenger Van more than a Syncro or Full Westy only because of the weight that it would have to push around.

I like being able to go to FLAPS and get the parts that I need easily, I recently changed a water pump and it took me all of 45 mins and that included the learning curve of doing it for the first time. I am confident that I could do it in about 15 if I need to do it again.

The guys in Boston have done a really nice job of the kit, and their support is amazing. They will do everything that they can to help you get it straight... They want nothing more than a positive experience for you. I have been back to their shop, and it is not a large commercial operation, but rather a small cottage industry that is making sure that they do it right.

Just my $.02

SF
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 5:43 pm    Post subject: What about the trans? Reply with quote

I have been debating with myself over the engine conversion conundrum since purchasing my 85 Westy automatic.

I have always leaned toward the Bostig conversion when the time finally comes but the development by D Clymer of the Suburu 5MT trans conversion sure has me considering a 2.5 conversion. A 2.5 with the 5MT sure seems like an awesome package.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zero419 wrote:
I went with Bostig because of the amateur DIY completeness.

Zero, still happy with the zetec conversion? I've an '87 automatic that I'm thinking of upgrading.

Thanks,
-Ken
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not intending to start a war, but myself and numerous freinds have all done the Suby installs ourselves for $2500 or less.

Seriously, if you can pull an engine and follow a simple color coded wiring diagram, they are not difficult even for the first timer. So much info is on the Web, it only takes some time browsing, reasearching and deciding what engine you want to do whether subie, zetec, 1.8t, or TDI. The subie and zetec are by far the most popular with the must support for the DIYr.

Paul
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ken.anderson@maintaindata wrote:
Zero419 wrote:
I went with Bostig because of the amateur DIY completeness.

Zero, still happy with the zetec conversion? I've an '87 automatic that I'm thinking of upgrading.

Thanks,
-Ken


All good so far. Just did an air box to snorkel connection that removed a drone I had. Brungeman explained to me how to do it.
Reliability it great, power is so-so. 4-speed may be better suited to get everything out of this motor in the higher rpm range.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Franklinstower wrote:
I'm not intending to start a war, but myself and numerous freinds have all done the Suby installs ourselves for $2500 or less.

Paul

You can easily spend $2500 on a conversion kit alone and then you still have to source and engine and wiring harness.

So I'm guessing you're only buying a few conversion parts and fabricating the rest at that price? What parts are you buying and what are you fabricating?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buying a donor and stripping out what is needed then parting out the rest(profit) makes the whole venture that much more affordable.
I came out ahead of my purchase price on both of my donors very easily.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MayorMcCheese wrote:
Franklinstower wrote:
I'm not intending to start a war, but myself and numerous freinds have all done the Suby installs ourselves for $2500 or less.

Paul

You can easily spend $2500 on a conversion kit alone and then you still have to source and engine and wiring harness.

So I'm guessing you're only buying a few conversion parts and fabricating the rest at that price? What parts are you buying and what are you fabricating?


You only NEED to buy adapter/engine carrier/header for around $1500. Adding Tom Shiels' thermostat housing is a clean and accurate way to keep the engine temperature right where it needs to be. Getting Tom to adapt the harness is good for perceptually handicapped guys like me.

I paid $6000 for my conversion parts (including a new rad, etc) and sold the engine, ECU, etc. for around $1500. As far as I'm concerned, $4500 is a VERY reasonable price to pay for what I got! Wink
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