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Stephenmarklay
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 Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:59 am Post subject: Circuit breaker orientation |
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On my Aux install i have a couple manual reset circuit breakers. The small shortstop variety. Those have a mains side and aux side. But I am running a charger in the opposite direction the charger is fused but I wondered if the breaker will be harmed? what gives with the direction?
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bluebus86
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: Circuit breaker orientation |
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| Stephenmarklay wrote: |
| On my Aux install i have a couple manual reset circuit breakers. The small shortstop variety. Those have a mains side and aux side. But I am running a charger in the opposite direction the charger is fused but I wondered if the breaker will be harmed? what gives with the direction? |
a breaker is pretty apathetic, dont care, they are non polarized in regards to main and auxilary side, at least internally. . however dont put the main on the aux side unless you relable or obliterate the wrong labling. this is for safety.also per codes the switch for toggle type breakers should be down for off, and up for on, on verticle mounting just like properly installed wall light switches are orientated., this is for safety, also. a falling object striking it in the off position is not going to switch it on. plus it is uniform standard for visual inspection of state of breaker.
however why would you need to run the wires on the wrong side, wires not long enough to reach?
note some fancy dancy new fangled ground and arc fault smart breakers may have polarity sensitivty to main and auxilary side.
also if you have a fuse inline you dont need the breaker, and visa versa. using both wont help you any, so bypass one of them. if you suspect you may have semi frequent overloads then a breaker is a wise choice economically long term verses buying fuses all the time. if you dont expect overloads except in an emergency, then a fuse may be more economical.
note a breaker tripped regularly does tend to wear out. they get hot before tripping, and that heat can eventually weaken the spring that holds them closed, causing them to trip more frequently, add to that the arcing each high amp breaking event does to the contacts, they get pitted, oxidize, and then make a high resistance contact, which causes them to heat more, again making the breaker trip at below rated loads, each time pitting the contacts a bit more. if a well used breaker seems to start tripping more frequently, it might be worn, use ammeter to test.
bottom line is dont overload it often.
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bluebus86
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Circuit breaker orientation |
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Circuit breaker orientation? Sure we welcome all orientations, we even have a transister bathroom policy! We are well integrated circuits.
I hope we all suffer few zener moments, and diode. I hope this from the bottohm of my heart.. 
ps Did you hear about the Presidents new electromigration policy, it will thin the lines at the border. 
i knew this is a silicide mission once we made contact.
This is all very Shockley information.
V/R am done.
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Last edited by bluebus86 on Mon Oct 03, 2016 5:07 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Stephenmarklay
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Joined: August 10, 2016
Posts: 526
Location: Spokane
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: Circuit breaker orientation |
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| bluebus86 wrote: |
| Stephenmarklay wrote: |
| On my Aux install i have a couple manual reset circuit breakers. The small shortstop variety. Those have a mains side and aux side. But I am running a charger in the opposite direction the charger is fused but I wondered if the breaker will be harmed? what gives with the direction? |
a breaker is pretty apathetic, dont care, they are non polarized in regards to main and auxilary side, at least internally. . however dont put the main on the aux side unless you relable or obliterate the wrong labling. this is for safety.also per codes the switch for toggle type breakers should be down for off, and up for on, on verticle mounting just like properly installed wall light switches are orientated., this is for safety, also. a falling object striking it in the off position is not going to switch it on. plus it is uniform standard for visual inspection of state of breaker.
however why would you need to run the wires on the wrong side, wires not long enough to reach?
note some fancy dancy new fangled ground and arc fault smart breakers may have polarity sensitivty to main and auxilary side.
also if you have a fuse inline you dont need the breaker, and visa versa. using both wont help you any, so bypass one of them. if you suspect you may have semi frequent overloads then a breaker is a wise choice economically long term verses buying fuses all the time. if you dont expect overloads except in an emergency, then a fuse may be more economical.
note a breaker tripped regularly does tend to wear out. they get hot before tripping, and that heat can eventually weaken the spring that holds them closed, causing them to trip more frequently, add to that the arcing each high amp breaking event does to the contacts, they get pitted, oxidize, and then make a high resistance contact, which causes them to heat more, again making the breaker trip at below rated loads, each time pitting the contacts a bit more. if a well used breaker seems to start tripping more frequently, it might be worn, use ammeter to test.
bottom line is dont overload it often. |
Thanks again Bluebus86. I kind of wish I would have I would have planned my AUX/Charger/Solar/Combiner stuff a little longer since I feel like I am chasing my tail.
Anyway I have an AUX feeding a sub fuse box under the sink. I put a 50A circuit breaker on that line as it is possible to have too much connected (fused accessories) and I don’t won’t to overload the wiring.
The the sub fuse box has a positive and negative bus that I am using to connect a line to the outside to use as either for accessory power (tire inflater or christmas lights) but I also plan on using a 100W portable solar charger with that. That charge will now be going back to the AUX through the circuit breaker. I also plan on putting a shore charger on that bus again going the wrong direction.
Both the outside accessory line and the shore charger will be separately fused as the are not running through the panel just borrowing the bus.
The reason I am doing this is to minimize the amount of big wires (8 AWG in this case) to the battery box. I don’t want the van to look like a power station.
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Stephenmarklay
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Joined: August 10, 2016
Posts: 526
Location: Spokane
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: Circuit breaker orientation |
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| bluebus86 wrote: |
| Circuit breaker orientation? Sure we welcome all orientations, we even have a transister bathroom policy! We are well integrated circuits. I hope we all diode. |
Funny 
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bluebus86
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: Circuit breaker orientation |
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| Stephenmarklay wrote: |
| bluebus86 wrote: |
| Stephenmarklay wrote: |
| On my Aux install i have a couple manual reset circuit breakers. The small shortstop variety. Those have a mains side and aux side. But I am running a charger in the opposite direction the charger is fused but I wondered if the breaker will be harmed? what gives with the direction? |
a breaker is pretty apathetic, dont care, they are non polarized in regards to main and auxilary side, at least internally. . however dont put the main on the aux side unless you relable or obliterate the wrong labling. this is for safety.also per codes the switch for toggle type breakers should be down for off, and up for on, on verticle mounting just like properly installed wall light switches are orientated., this is for safety, also. a falling object striking it in the off position is not going to switch it on. plus it is uniform standard for visual inspection of state of breaker.
however why would you need to run the wires on the wrong side, wires not long enough to reach?
note some fancy dancy new fangled ground and arc fault smart breakers may have polarity sensitivty to main and auxilary side.
also if you have a fuse inline you dont need the breaker, and visa versa. using both wont help you any, so bypass one of them. if you suspect you may have semi frequent overloads then a breaker is a wise choice economically long term verses buying fuses all the time. if you dont expect overloads except in an emergency, then a fuse may be more economical.
note a breaker tripped regularly does tend to wear out. they get hot before tripping, and that heat can eventually weaken the spring that holds them closed, causing them to trip more frequently, add to that the arcing each high amp breaking event does to the contacts, they get pitted, oxidize, and then make a high resistance contact, which causes them to heat more, again making the breaker trip at below rated loads, each time pitting the contacts a bit more. if a well used breaker seems to start tripping more frequently, it might be worn, use ammeter to test.
bottom line is dont overload it often. |
Thanks again Bluebus86. I kind of wish I would have I would have planned my AUX/Charger/Solar/Combiner stuff a little longer since I feel like I am chasing my tail.
Anyway I have an AUX feeding a sub fuse box under the sink. I put a 50A circuit breaker on that line as it is possible to have too much connected (fused accessories) and I don’t won’t to overload the wiring.
The the sub fuse box has a positive and negative bus that I am using to connect a line to the outside to use as either for accessory power (tire inflater or christmas lights) but I also plan on using a 100W portable solar charger with that. That charge will now be going back to the AUX through the circuit breaker. I also plan on putting a shore charger on that bus again going the wrong direction.
Both the outside accessory line and the shore charger will be separately fused as the are not running through the panel just borrowing the bus.
The reason I am doing this is to minimize the amount of big wires (8 AWG in this case) to the battery box. I don’t want the van to look like a power station. |
maybe i am thinking this wrong, but do you want to run the solar output to one side of the breaker, and the other side both the input power (from battery) and the load? if so the load wont be protected wehn under battery supply, only when under solar supply.
the load and only the load is on one side, the other can have the supply, be it battery or and solar. usually but battery and solar should be in parallel anyway for charging
good luck
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Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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Stephenmarklay
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Location: Spokane
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: Circuit breaker orientation |
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Trust me your not the only one a little bit confused
I am for sure having fits about this.
Taking the breaker out of the equation I have a power and ground running to a fuse box via the AUX. The loads are all fused.
I also have a line in connecting to the same points not the fuse box as the AUX. So if solar is on connected its is essentially just connected to the AUX via the bus on the fuse box.
That solar line has its own fuse not part of that fuse box. Enter the circuit breaker. The breaker is in the AUX line to the fuse box. The purpose is to protect that wire from overheating if some dim wit (me) decides to draw 50 amps at one time (I don’t think I will even have that high of loads anyway) from the AUX though the fuse box.
While current will flow into that circuit breaker to charge the AUX it is not there for its consideration and does not need that protection. Again that line is fused separate.
*Since that solar line goes to the side of the van and directly connects to the AUX there is also opportunity to be used as a load if the panel is not plugged in.
*This would be no different than a small solar charger plugged into a cigarette lighter.
I hope I am making an iota of sense.
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bluebus86
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Stephenmarklay
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: Circuit breaker orientation |
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| bluebus86 wrote: |
the AUX, what is that? a terminal? whats it on?
thanks. |
I tend to forget what is my head is not in every one else's too. AUX was just my abbreviation for Auxiliary battery.
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bluebus86
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: Circuit breaker orientation |
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ok, YES, current can flow either direction thru a circuit breaker, it is simply a switch that automatically opens at a predetermined current, so treat it like a switch, charge battery thru it one way, load battery thru it the other. that will work! and it will give rated protection in either mode.
just lable the terminals to reflect what you have done so someone else can quickly figure it out basically either side can be the "mains" side on the breaker depending on if battery is being drained or charged at any time
good luck
ps it is good to draw it all out in a schematic. then take a photo or scan your proposed schematic for critisism, and comments. several folks here are pretty knowledgeable on dual batteries, solar and such, I just dive a plain ole tin top, and am of limited help. lets see your plan, even if you dont need help,, your plan then would help others.
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Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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fxr
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Location: Bay area CA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: Circuit breaker orientation |
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I'm confused by a description of a 12V thermal circuit breaker with 'mains' and 'aux' terminals.
Never, ever, seen one of those before.
Surely they are polarity insensitive? I'd never use one that suggested it was...
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1984 1.9l EJ22 Westy Wolfsburg Edition
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bluebus86
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: Circuit breaker orientation |
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| fxr wrote: |
I'm confused by a description of a 12V thermal circuit breaker with 'mains' and 'aux' terminals.
Never, ever, seen one of those before.
Surely they are polarity insensitive? I'd never use one that suggested it was... |
the mains means the hot side. it is too help assure a standardized wiring method. less accidnets occur if the danverous hot side is always oriented the same. important when the breaker is switched off for service, the electrician will know which side is still hot, an industry standard, just like wall light switches are always down for off. hot water knobs are on tbe left, cold on the right. the lables are to encourage conformance to standard practice. your wall light switch is labled on and off, yet you can wire it anyway you want, but most everyone follows the labling, and thus 99.99% of light switches operate the same way, down is off.
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Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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Stephenmarklay
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Posts: 526
Location: Spokane
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:50 pm Post subject: Re: Circuit breaker orientation |
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| fxr wrote: |
I'm confused by a description of a 12V thermal circuit breaker with 'mains' and 'aux' terminals.
Never, ever, seen one of those before.
Surely they are polarity insensitive? I'd never use one that suggested it was... |
Here is a picture.
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bluebus86
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: Circuit breaker orientation |
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| Stephenmarklay wrote: |
| fxr wrote: |
I'm confused by a description of a 12V thermal circuit breaker with 'mains' and 'aux' terminals.
Never, ever, seen one of those before.
Surely they are polarity insensitive? I'd never use one that suggested it was... |
Here is a picture.
|
looks like a thermal snap switch. self resetting when cool.  I was thinking of a service breaker, that is manual reset, and can be manually opened. either way, it is bidirectional.
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: Circuit breaker orientation |
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| I don't know why it would say "BAT" and "AUX", if it were directional at all (which I doubt), I would think it would say "+" or "-". |
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Stephenmarklay
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:05 pm Post subject: Re: Circuit breaker orientation |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| I don't know why it would say "BAT" and "AUX", if it were directional at all (which I doubt), I would think it would say "+" or "-". |
Yeah who knows. Maybe they do that so that someone does not ground one of the terminals.
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Stephenmarklay
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Posts: 526
Location: Spokane
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: Circuit breaker orientation |
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| bluebus86 wrote: |
ok, YES, current can flow either direction thru a circuit breaker, it is simply a switch that automatically opens at a predetermined current, so treat it like a switch, charge battery thru it one way, load battery thru it the other. that will work! and it will give rated protection in either mode.
just lable the terminals to reflect what you have done so someone else can quickly figure it out basically either side can be the "mains" side on the breaker depending on if battery is being drained or charged at any time
good luck
ps it is good to draw it all out in a schematic. then take a photo or scan your proposed schematic for critisism, and comments. several folks here are pretty knowledgeable on dual batteries, solar and such, I just dive a plain ole tin top, and am of limited help. lets see your plan, even if you dont need help,, your plan then would help others. |
Your right. I guess when I started I figured it was no begin deal. They of course it got more complicated. I have not even mentioned how this will all tie back to the starter battery with my combiner. Luckily the one I bought is a small company (One guy) with great customer service.
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fxr
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:21 am Post subject: Re: Circuit breaker orientation |
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| bluebus86 wrote: |
| fxr wrote: |
I'm confused by a description of a 12V thermal circuit breaker with 'mains' and 'aux' terminals.
Never, ever, seen one of those before.
Surely they are polarity insensitive? I'd never use one that suggested it was... |
the mains means the hot side. it is too help assure a standardized wiring method. less accidnets occur if the danverous hot side is always oriented the same. important when the breaker is switched off for service, the electrician will know which side is still hot, an industry standard, just like wall light switches are always down for off. hot water knobs are on tbe left, cold on the right. the lables are to encourage conformance to standard practice. your wall light switch is labled on and off, yet you can wire it anyway you want, but most everyone follows the labling, and thus 99.99% of light switches operate the same way, down is off. |
OK, knowing at a glance that the copper-plated one is the one connected to the battery rather than the load could be useful to those who are aware of that convention and who might be fault-finding (or otherwise fiddling with it). Not essential for functionality though. 
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