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On the subject of side mirrors
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K58
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great writeup and pics!! Very impressive tools also.
Not wiring the mirrors to work would be half-assing it. Embarassed
Glad to see you taking the high road!
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GreenMachineVW
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JWPATE wrote:
... With a plan for the wiring now established, the next step is the harness itself. Here I must start with this old connector. I did make an effort to locate new ones, and actually do have the plastic housing, but the terminals inside seem to be NLA.

Your post has motivated me to install power mirrors on my '83. I would like to repair an original harness, and for that I would like to try and find those terminals. Did you ever find a supplier part number for them, or any other information that could be helpful in tracking them down? Which suppliers have you contacted? Those terminals are used a few places: to connect to the printed foil board on the instrument cluster, and to connect the seat belt/brake indicator on the cluster.
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JWPATE
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vwcrewman wrote:
Excellent write up. If you have an 86 or newer ,there are already holes in the door to run wires through and they use that huge rubber boot . It just makes the install a little quicker .
My only other comment is that the screws that hold the back up plate down are actually "Pozidrive" and not Phillips .An early type of English and GM type of torx head.
You'll love the heated mirrors in the winter ,it makes a huge difference for sure .


Vwcrewman,

I see that I didn't identify the head type on those small screws in the write-up, and cannot remember now just what they were. Thanks for pointing it out the omission, and I will take your word for it, and edit that posting.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent write up. If you have an 86 or newer ,there are already holes in the door to run wires through and they use that huge rubber boot . It just makes the install a little quicker .
My only other comment is that the screws that hold the back up plate down are actually "Pozidrive" and not Phillips .An early type of English and GM type of torx head.
You'll love the heated mirrors in the winter ,it makes a huge difference for sure .
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JWPATE
Thanks for the excellent build thread. I was stuck on where to mount the switch for my power mirror install, but reading where you put it has inspired me.
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GreenMachineVW
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, JW. My 1983 did not have any of those holes, or wires running through the air ducts, though it did have the hole to run the wires from inside the door up to the mirrors. In any event, awesome job and excellent clear instructions.
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JWPATE
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GreenMachineVW wrote:
Looking great! How did you get the drivers side harness out of the air tunnel? Did you have to drill something, or was there an existing hole big enough?


The speaker wires on both sides were already there from new. They both use holes/grommets on the top face of the air ducting.

I didn't have a need for another hole, except the one show above, which is on driver side by the fuse panel.
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GreenMachineVW
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking great! How did you get the drivers side harness out of the air tunnel? Did you have to drill something, or was there an existing hole big enough?
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JWPATE
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Looking for the neatest route for the center harness, I wondered about just taking it through the fresh air tunnel to the other side. I already have the door bundles terminating inside the tunnel.

So I taped the end of a tape measure and managed to work it through clear to the driver side opening. Then I taped a length of heavy monofilament to the tape end, and pulled that back through to use as the pulling tool for the wire bundle.

While the tape measure is still in, one should note that the actual length on wire bundle needed is 70 inches, or there about.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Those three wires mentioned earlier, the ground and two power sources, will have to come through the air tunnel somewhere. I chose this spot, just inboard of the fuse panel. Drill it and fit a rubber grommet. After the photo I ran also a small pull wire through this hole and out the driver side opening.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Then the center harness can be made up according to the dimensions we require. I left plenty of length on the three through-the-small-hole-wires, not knowing just how much would be needed.

Also, of course, on the passenger end we only want the terminals on at this point. After it is in place inside the air tunnel, the connectors on that end are added.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


About the only thing, apart from the operating switch, which looks any different, is this three-wire bundle next to the fuse panel. I used VW style spade connectors here, and took the ground over to the left side cluster of ground wires already there. The primary mirror power wire went to the number 12 fuse, where it joins the horn and back-up lights. The mirror heater power wire went up and joined the switched wire to the rear window heat. Whenever that switch is on the mirrors will be heated.

And yes it all works just as it should do. I still have to fit connectors for the speaker wires, when the order arrives. That is a piece of cake though, so I will consider the threaded ended here.

Many thanks for the suggestions along the way.
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JWPATE
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Made up a harness for the passenger side today, along the same lines as the driver side except here there is no switch. It is an easier and faster job.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So now both of the door panels are back in place. All that remains to do, is the wire bundle for the under dash connections. I will consider the easiest way to probably be the best way. Should be no need to go pulling the dash off, or anything like that. We now need to connect the two door harnesses and add a ground wire, along with two power sources, one for the glass heaters and one for the mirror motors.

When I figured up the number of connectors I would need, I didn't take into account the speaker wires, which are also getting connector sets inside the body fresh air tunnel on both sides. I have already ordered extra connectors, but will not be able to really finish up until they arrive, early next week I expect.
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JWPATE
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the help GreenMachine.

Yup, now I remember having sorted it out years ago. The left side air tunnel is blocked because there is nowhere for the air to vent on a Westy, aft of the rear door jam. I did dig out the part numbers though and have another plate on order for the right side (interesting enough, the right side plate is a different number than the left side), along with the gasket and frame for the left door. The gasket/plate arrangement are just better suited the harness I will be using. And, in this climate, I never need vents. The air they let in is 110 F +.

As I get to the center harness, I have already realized the need for a hole or two. Thanks for pointing it out, and hopefully we will soon have a look at that issue more closely.

On the subject of German electrical wire in a wide range of sizes and colors, I suggest:
http://www.eagleday.com/neauwi.html

Reliable, and honest, they will sell all the various wires by the meter.

I agree fully on the heater power source for the mirrors, you suggested.

Greatly appreciate you following the progress and contributing.
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GreenMachineVW
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking good!

I believe the original hole from the air duct in the door was out the back, i.e. drilled with the bit horizontal, and perpendicular to direction of vehicle travel. I do not remember, but from my previous post of the harness that is what it looks like. To do that now, you would also need to drill a hole in the front, i.e. door panel, side. No reason the top should not work, especially since you are not using the factory boots. There is also a hole needed in the airduct on the vehicle side, just behind the fuse panel on the drivers side, and similarly placed on the passenger side. Maybe you already had those?

That duct work is there to bring air to the vents along the wall to ceiling edge back in the passenger area. As those vents are only on the right side on a Westfalia, the drivers side duct has been blocked off. The bottom lever of the climate controls opens and closes the (fresh) air flow to those vents.

The heater power wires should just splice into the rear defroster wire, I think that is a green/white wire. When the rear defroster is on, so are the mirror defrosters.

Where did you get the color coded wire? It looks like they even had the correct second color stripes.

Thanks for the nice write-up, pictures, and clear step by step instructions!
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JWPATE
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I do not know how VW routed the wire bundles for these power mirrors, but the path I have chosen is through those fresh air tunnels inside both doors. That way, no holes need to be drilled in the door jams. To get the wires from the mirrors into the air tunnels though, we will certainly need holes.

A hole through the side will not do. We need to come out from the top of the air tunnel.

This item is rarely used, so it was happy to be called into service today. What we need now, is a hole somewhere under the side mirror, to feed wires into that air tunnel. I made the assault on the top surface of that air tunnel, using this right angle drill and this 11/16 inch hole saw.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Best to start with an 1/8 inch guide hole, then mount up the saw. This will make quick work of the thin sheet metal. It will also create a metal washer, which will later rattle around inside that air tunnel. To prevent it doing that, don't neglect to run a magnet in from the front of the tunnel and remove the thing.

Do this on both doors, of course.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


With a plan for the wiring now established, the next step is the harness itself. Here I must start with this old connector. I did make an effort to locate new ones, and actually do have the plastic housing, but the terminals inside seem to be NLA.

Therefore, the best thing seems to be just stick with this old example. It is the only one I have, so best not tinker around with trying to spread the crimps and use new wire. Just leave the thing alone, and splice.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


These wires are all made from a group of smaller strands. The best way I have found to splice them is to first strip off a couple of inches of the strands, cut and separate them. Then when the ends are brought together, we can wrap them with an individual strand of the same wire type, thus providing a mechanical bonding. Finally give them a careful dose of solder. They will be strong and little if any resistance will be added.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Until a couple of years ago, I didn't know of this excellent heat shrink. It has a resin coating inside, which when subjected to the heat shrink will also melt and provide a water tight seal.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I didn't measure anything here, just pulled through a sample wire and placed tape where various things need to be. This is for the driver's door, and I did it first because it is the most involved, containing as it does, the connection to the operating switch.

Notice that the wires for the door speaker are included, and they can be seen going through the side of the air tunnel in the next photo.

Also note that all the body-end terminals are mounted, but not their connectors. Again we shall need to feed that end through the hole just recently drilled.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Once in place, I can build up the connectors. Eight wires are passing through those three connectors, so one of them is a four-way.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And this will be the new order. All the connectors will make up on the other side of that black plastic cover.

The cover is no invention of this poor peasant. It has always been there. Only the grommet and wire bundle size have changed. Before, it was only for speaker wires.

Question? How much ventilation was getting past that plastic plate? The passenger side didn't have one, and the passenger side door opening to the air tunnel had a foam seal to prevent air loss. I never was able to reason out this arrangement.

Anyway, with air conditioning, the issue is moot. And what I prefer is both the seal and the plate on both sides. I shall dig out the part numbers and see if any are still lurking somewhere in the VW parts warehouses.
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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So, first remove the new connectors from the wire terminals, and then the wires can be slipped through the holes already provided.

With the mirrors both in place, I noted that they protrude no further out than did the originals. I took it for a test ride, and completely agree with those member who suggested not to bother with hooking up the electric motors. They are completely stable and I consider that just as they set here, they are a great improvement. Well worth the time and expense.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I have decided though, to make them fully functional, and so will continue in that effort. Here, the connectors are again fitted to the wire terminals. It is a tight job, working inside that speaker hole, but there is sufficient room to get them mounted again.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The next step will be to fit the electric switch. It could be located in lots of places, and I don't know where VW decided upon.

For me this looks like a satisfactory spot - about an inch forward of the hand grip, and just below that upper seam in the door panel upholstery. When mounted, this section of the panel is flat against the inner door sheet metal, so the mounting hole will include that sheet metal.

The outer flange of the switch is roughly square, but looking carefully at the portion which will need to slip through the mounting hole, it appears that a round hole will be best. There are two spring fingers, mounted to the sides of the switch body, to hold it in place. I measured these, compressed against the switch body, and decided that a hole of 35 mm would be about right. That is nominally 1 3/8 inch.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So, the drill is to cut a template the size of that switch face, and locate it exactly where you like it. Since we have decided on a round hole, just mark the center point.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


First I checked with my finger tips, and there seems to be sufficient room inside the door for the desired location. Then the door panel went back in place, because we want the hole in the panel and that through the sheet metal be be exactly lined up.

Next I put a 1/8 inch guide hole through. Then, seen here, an attack was launched, using a 1 3/8 inch hole saw (with hopes that the measurement was correct - for a mistake here would be difficult to walk away from).


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


With a small file, clean the burrs from around the sheet metal hole. Also cut a notch at bottom dead center, to take the plastic tab on the switch (provided to prevent it turning in place).

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The fit of the switch is sweet yet firmly held by the spring fingers mentioned above.

I think this is the best orientation, with the letters "L" and "R" reading as they should.
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big swifty
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well done!
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JWPATE
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Building the mirrors back up is just a matter or reversing the order of disassembly, with a few twists. First, you will find that that spring will need compressing slightly in order to get the nut started. I used this big screw blade affair, just bearing down first on the nut to compress the spring. After it is started, we can just screw the base mount as was done taking it apart. Set it as tightly as you like. For me, when the threaded sleeve is just level with the nut surface seemed about right.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I have already decided to use modern Deutsch brand electrical connectors on the harness, so these old spade connectors can come off now. It is still easier though to work the harness back into the mirror just as we took it out.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


There are short legs and longer legs on the backing plate, so it can only go in the correct way. For the motor plate, remember to orientate the clutch end uppermost.


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The mirror glass seems OK for further service so back they went. I tested both again to insure they still operate electrically as they should. In the correct color now, they are ready for their new role in the world order.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This will be the new connector type. They are easily available from any number of sources, and very high quality. Smaller than the originals, they will be slightly easier to find room for. However, they will also have to come on and off the wire ends before fitting and removing the mirrors from the Westy. That mirror cable hole provided is much too small for either the original or the new connectors.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Time to break out all the wire colors I have too. These are all in the small gauge, .5 mm, as used on the original harnesses. Much easier to avoid mistakes when the colors match the Bentley diagram.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And, like everything, there is a learning curve to get over. They are nice connectors though, and when completed they have rubber seals at each end. One can get the terminals in pressed version for crimping, or in a solid nickel version for soldering. I am using the solder type, and it is necessary to be precise indeed with the application.


Nothing to stop mounting them on the Westy now, except that I am out of time for today.
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Um, I didn't use the 3rd screw. seems plenty strong.

Maybe I'll go put one in though. Prob when I run the wires for the turn signal mod Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 4:28 pm    Post subject: Re: power mirror installation Reply with quote

tangojeff wrote:
I skipped the nutsert for the new lower mounting screw. Wasn't too difficult to install a washer and nut onto the the 3rd screw from inside of the door, and it helps make it harder to remove the mirror without my permission.


Yes, and without question a nut/washer will provide greater strength than will a rivet nut. It's just a matter of personal choice.
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 3:22 pm    Post subject: power mirror installation Reply with quote

I skipped the nutsert for the new lower mounting screw. Wasn't too difficult to install a washer and nut onto the the 3rd screw from inside of the door, and it helps make it harder to remove the mirror without my permission.
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Thoroughly clean all the bits, then wet sand them. I thought 400 grit would be sufficient for these. They had clear coat pealed off on the top, where the sun had done its job, but otherwise were not damaged.

Then it is necessary to devise some crude expedient for enabling us to paint all the surfaces in one go. This works OK, using sticks, rods or even welding wire for the lightweight caps. Then one can hold the item up by its support stick in one hand, and operate a touch-up paint gun with the other.

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Seen here in primer, and with color and clear coats still to go.
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