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Bent Wheel Studs
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msinabottle
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 2:32 pm    Post subject: Bent Wheel Studs Reply with quote

Well, this is aggravating--I'm starting a new thread just to make sure the warning gets out.

In this post:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219816&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc

I detail how I mounted new wheel studs on Winston as part of his conversion to use those 15" Audi TT5000 rims. In another post I mention I had the rear brakes redone. Two days ago I had some time, and began my usual pre-season ritual of checking the torque on his lug nuts, just to prevent some of the happy stories we've all read here.

Couldn't get one nut to torque down. Pulled the wheel, looked at the stud. Stripped. Put the wheel back on, stripped two more studs trying to get it back on. Upshot: When the brakes were done, the VERY GOOD PEOPLE who did the job almost certainly used an impact hammer and bent the studs. After a conversion such as this, and I've found confirmation of it on other boards, it's HAND TIGHTENING ONLY.

I can't find the EMPI 52mm. racing studs CIP sold me for the first conversion, so I ordered 5 of GoWesty's 56 mm studs and am feeling like an idiot since almost certainly more of them are bent on the other rear wheel. I should have ordered more. I'm looking for a local source of supply. I think I can get Winston to the mechanics, who have agreed to pull the rear wheel hubs and press in new studs, which should fix the problem. I also want to find an M14-1.5 tap to clean up any of the lug nuts that might be salvageable.

It was an annoying discovery. Just thought I'd pass along a heads-up.

Sigh. At least I found out in a non-catastrophic way. I hope.

Best!
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presslab
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have found that the EMPI "racing" studs are too large to press into the Vanagon hub. By pressing them in it flattens the spline part on the stud and hogs out the hub, therefore making the hole too large to accept the correct stud, and leaving them prone to stripping out. These studs are soft metal, and in general kinda sucky.

How do I know this you ask? Embarassed

I now have replaced both hubs and installed Verbus studs. Much better! I hope your hubs aren't ruined like mine were. Shocked
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msinabottle
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:38 pm    Post subject: Thank you! Reply with quote

I find your information extremely significant. Where did you get your new hubs and studs?

EMPI has a reputation in the VW community. I'm beginning to wish I'd paid attention to it.

Perhaps my hubs could be broached, or salvaged ones purchased and good studs installed. I have little idea of what are good studs and where to get them.

I am not happy.

Additional information gratefully received.

Best!
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r39o
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You want Verbus "Porsche" studs.

Use a web search to find them.

The hubs are best purchased used, cause new ones are going to be big bux if you can find them at all.

Stock is 38mm and I just bought some 45mm for my next conversion.

You can find them in several lengths.
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presslab
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I ordered from here:
http://www.pmbperformance.com/catalog/item/1925563/4747893.htm

Shipping was fast, but no email with tracking info. They are high quality and pressed in perfect

Your EMPI studs have an unthreaded part on the end, yes? Mine were like that too. I would guess that the Verbus 45mm studs will have about the same thread length as your EMPI, as the Verbus studs are threaded to the end.

I bought used hubs from Pick-N-Pull. I might have a spare hub available soon, with Verbus 45mm studs installed already, if you are interested.
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msinabottle
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 9:15 pm    Post subject: Realization Dawns... Reply with quote

So... It seems that we need to pull Winston's rear hubs, and examine what's left of the holes. If the pot metal studs we pressed in left the hubs salvageable, perhaps a self-broaching stud can go in, or the existing hubs can be broached, or filled with bronze and then broached.

Due to the nature of my rims, the studs would need to be around 52 mm. I have so far not found a Verbus stud of greater length than 45 mm. It would be nice to know what vehicles might have used an M14x1.5 52 mm. stud. I wonder where to find self-broaching studs, or studs with outsized splines.

Moral: Things are never as bad as you think they are. They are MUCH WORSE.

Best.
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presslab
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 9:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Realization Dawns... Reply with quote

msinabottle wrote:
Due to the nature of my rims, the studs would need to be around 52 mm. I have so far not found a Verbus stud of greater length than 45 mm. It would be nice to know what vehicles might have used an M14x1.5 52 mm. stud. I wonder where to find self-broaching studs, or studs with outsized splines.


Maybe these will work?
http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/smart/more_info.cgi?pn=PCG-331-671-00-M260

It would be a good idea to call them to see what the thread dimensions and spline diameter are before ordering.
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msinabottle
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 9:30 pm    Post subject: Promising! Reply with quote

The Pelican Studs do look promising, I have also found Ichiba studs of the same length. At the moment I am wondering if I should pull Winston's hubs (which will involve... the nut...), take them to someone who can evaluate the hubs, and make my decision on what to do. If I had an additional set of hubs available, that would give me the option. I wonder who does 'hub work' in the Denver area?

Drat, I thought Pelican Parts was a Denver-area company (I was hoping to get some Swepco 210 from them) but the appear to be in California.

I hate this. Very grateful, though, for the feedback and support.

Best!
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r39o
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can drive the studs in and out with a big brass mallet. Not a problem.

ANY and I do mean ANY machine shop can press them in.

Now you can use the Pelican studs which are Verbus and they just buy the wholesale via the likes of IMC (like I did.)

You can go and get Dorman studs too which are bigger and normally require drilling the hubs. Go to an old time LAPS for that.

Since yours are likely boogered up, that may be an option.

This is all very very simple stuff.
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

r39o wrote:
You can drive the studs in and out with a big brass mallet. Not a problem.


I know you meant this to be done after the hub is off the van, but for the sake of others I thought I would mention that it's a "bad idea" to pound the studs out while the hub is mounted to the bearings. The bearings do not like being pounded on and they can be damaged. Crying or Very sad
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msinabottle
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:31 pm    Post subject: Ongoing... Reply with quote

I agree that it is simple stuff, it's just a matter of getting it to all come together. By 'drilled' I wonder if you mean 'broached' or would the Dorman studs self-broach when pressed into the hubs...

All right, here's the current program--call my mechanic and see what he says, perhaps about taking off Winston's rear hubs, inspecting them, and/or replacing them...

I've been trying to find a local source for M14x1.5 52 mm studs, AutoZone has Dormans, but not in the right size and I'm DONE with the EMPI stuff. See if I can find self-broaching studs in the right size. Get 'em on. I can take them to the same machine shop that pressed in the crappy EMPI studs. Also, get new, good, Porsche-style ball lug nuts to replace the soft chrome ones that didn't damage my rims, but stripped too easily for multiple kinds of comfort... and, no, I won't be doing any of it on the van.

At least other people doing a wheel and rim conversion will be dodging some bullets... But this is very tiring.

Best!
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

r39o wrote:
You want Verbus "Porsche" studs.

Use a web search to find them.

The hubs are best purchased used, cause new ones are going to be big bux if you can find them at all.

Stock is 38mm and I just bought some 45mm for my next conversion.

You can find them in several lengths.


The spline patterns differ.
Tack weld each in place or an unsupervised impact will spin them.

I have numerous Syncros and Porsches using Verbus studs.
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:25 am    Post subject: Re: Ongoing... Reply with quote

Really sorry to hear about your stud/lug troubles.

msinabottle wrote:
Also, get new, good, Porsche-style ball lug nuts to replace the soft chrome ones that didn't damage my rims, but stripped too easily for multiple kinds of comfort... and, no, I won't be doing any of it on the van.


Porsche-style lug nuts are not a good match for Audi/VW wheels. The ball size is too large to fit the lug seats properly. You want the small ball seat style lugs for those wheels. Just saying!
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msinabottle
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:04 am    Post subject: As Things Wobble Now... Reply with quote

All right... The way things stand now...

I order 10 of the longer Porsche OEM studs.

I take Winston down to the mechanic where the wheel hubs can be pulled and examined. We try to put the Porsche OEM studs into place. If they are not firm, we tack weld 'em so they won't spin. That will probably necessitate a trip to a separate shop, but I can probably do that in the course of a day. We put ten new small-ball style lug nuts on the new studs.

I have found Dorman studs that look like they would work:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


http://www.dormanproducts.com/p-8098-610-331.aspx

Do you think those would just press in in the place of the #$%^!@# EMPIs? Or, as the great r39 has said, we could drill and self-broach them.

I suppose it's good it took 5 years or so before it all went south on me.

My head hurts.

Best!
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:01 am    Post subject: Re: Ongoing... Reply with quote

Christopher Schimke wrote:


Porsche-style lug nuts are not a good match for Audi/VW wheels. The ball size is too large to fit the lug seats properly. You want the small ball seat style lugs for those wheels. Just saying!


Just an FYI. The person who offered the free advice above
specializes in wheel studs and their proper use on our vans...
No personal financial interest, but that's who I would go to for studs first...
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

insyncro wrote:
The spline patterns differ.
Tack weld each in place or an unsupervised impact will spin them.

I have numerous Syncros and Porsches using Verbus studs.

It would not hurt to tack weld them.

I measured several factory 38mm studs and new Verbus 45mm studs. The diameter of the splines is 0.575 in for the 45 and 0.580 in for the 38. (FYI: I measured some 70mm studs and they are 0.580 just like the originals.) All the above (38,45 and 70) are all Verbus brand. Go figger...

The spline count is hard to count, but appears to be slightly off.

See below:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

70mm:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

r39o wrote:

I measured several factory 38mm studs and new Verbus 45mm studs. The diameter of the splines is 0.575 in for the 45 and 0.580 in for the 38. (FYI: I measured some 70mm studs and they are 0.580 just like the originals.) All the above (38,45 and 70) are all Verbus brand. Go figger...

The spline count is hard to count, but appears to be slightly off.


The actual spline count makes no difference. The holes for the studs in the hubs are not splined, but are just round holes. Some of these holes show slight depressions in the walls of the stud holes, but these are simply where the teeth of the splines were pressing against the hub causing a slight deformation. The most important factor is the diameter of the splined section, but even then there is a little wriggle room. As has been noted above, too tight and the hubs deform. Too loose and the studs aren't tight enough in the hub. The height of the splines plays a part too, but to a much lesser degree. The spines are designed to deform when pressed into the hub creating a controlled interference fit. An unused OE VW rear stud measures 14.9mm at the splines.
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:52 am    Post subject: Thank you, Very much Reply with quote

The information continues to pour in. Thank you, very much, everyone, in particular to r390 for photographing and micrometering above and beyond.

Eventually (soon, rather), I will have to make a call to get Winston road worthy. I should note that Chris, whose information is MOST welcome--and why shouldn't he plug himself, those who support the Vanagon aftermarket are supporting us! -- was not in the business, if I recall correctly, when I did the conversion. I wish he had been!

Chris's studs look great and reasonably priced. I have no idea about their quality versus the Verbus, a 'sure thing' looks very good just now. I fear, we have one account for this, that Winston's stock holes were munged by the EMPI garbage studs that at the time I thought were good ones to get. It is probably too late to just press in better studs.

Space-time is an issue. I can take Winston to the garage which can effortlessly pull his wheel hubs and press in new studs. I can't leave Winston there for days while the right studs come in. Would tack-welding in Chris's or the Verbus good stock studs work even if the stock holes got munged? From the 'quality' of the EMPI studs, it's hard to imagine they did THAT much damage!

Would the Dorman studs drive in and lock with their bigger splines (are they bigger? I find no measurements) or lock into place if we drilled out the holes on the hubs?

I have to decide. Pulling the hubs myself will be... hard, although I've done it. Then I can leave Winston in the garage while the right parts come in and I get the hubs done.

I am so grateful to you all--and my head still hurts.

Best!
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Christopher Schimke wrote:
The most important factor is the diameter of the splined section, but even then there is a little wriggle room........ An unused OE VW rear stud measures 14.9mm at the splines.

14.9 mm / 25.4 mm / in = 0.587 in

As noted above a new Verbus 45 mm stud has a splined section of 0.575 in.

(Used ones (pressed in) are 0.580 in...guessing new production is now different.)

The difference then being around 12 thousands of an inch for new Verbus against new OE VW.

How much "wiggle" room are we talking?


(NOTE: In the extreme case you can weld around the hole in the back to shrink it and/or/maybe dimple around the hole to give it some squeeze, too. But this is the extreme case. - You can always just tack weld them as above too.)
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msinabottle
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:24 pm    Post subject: Decision Gate Reply with quote

Okay... Can't find a spare set of hubs laying around, big surprise, so we have reached our decision gate. I'm going to order Chris's set of 10 52mm studs and 10 of his 19mm closed (I wish you had open) small-ball lug nuts. I'm ordering the 19mm so that I only have to have one socket with my lug wrench.

My mechanic called, he's willing to pull the hubs and try to press in Chris's studs, which will probably work, given the... execrable quality of the EMPI's--I doubt if they were strong enough to clobber the hubs. If Chris's studs don't spin, the problem is solved.

I find this quote from my original post reassuring. The 'They' is G&S Machining, where I had the EMPI studs pressed in:

Quote:
They'd helped me with Winston's New Ugly Bumper (NUB) and after measuring the new studs to make sure they wouldn't damage the hubs, they pressed them in completely while I waited about 20 minutes and charged me $15. THAT, dear friends, is a machine shop. Hubs and studs looked great.


If Chris's studs DO spin, then we see if I can get 'em tacked or dimpled quickly and my mechanic sends me home with the problem solved... Worse case, I take Winston home with a missing stud on each wheel, then pull the hubs and get them dealt with at length.

Chris, dear fellow--please ship fast! I so want to get Winston to VW's on the Green next on the 20th!

Weary, grateful...

Best!
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