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r.e.wing_fc3s Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2010 Posts: 591 Location: Vanagon Capitol USA: Bellingham, WA
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Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 9:41 am Post subject: Suspension down travel/droop- limiting factors? |
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One of my rear shocks is blown in my 86 gl. people seem to not like the kyb's but they've treated me well and put up with a lot. im running 195/70 15 tires. These are worn and id like to replace with 215/75 15 bfg mud terrain t/a km2
It seems the p.o. fitted lift springs to the rear as it sits at 17.5 fender to center. no spacers evident. drivers front is 16.75 pass front 17.
I need new shocks and at the same time id like to lift the van a small amount. it seems that 18"-19" is the recommended height if your not using the 930cvs. I like the idea of the s-10 springs/b.j. spacers in front and ill just add some cutting board in back.
So is suspension droop an inverse of the amount of lift? For every inch of lift you lose an inch of droop? I really like the look of jrobe westys setup, but i cant help but think that the travel looks pretty maxed out at that height.
How much droop is available at those ride heights? Id like to be able to use the full down travel and be limited by the basic design of the suspension, not the shocks themselves. I dont know if the shocks normally limit the down travel, it seems like shocks do on the rear, and the basic design limits the front. will yellow bilsteins have enough range to allow the suspension to go all the way down?
edit- now that i think about it i guess the limit on the back really is the axle, my friend used limiting straps on his syncro so the axle wouldn't pop. _________________ Reference Automotive: NW Washingtons Vanagon Specialist. (360)366-6965. referenceautomotive.com
Last edited by r.e.wing_fc3s on Tue May 22, 2012 9:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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insyncro Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 15086 Location: New York
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Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 9:47 am Post subject: |
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Stock parts are the limiting factor.
Start bolting on aftermarket and you can have whatever you like.
A 2wd kit is close to being released by a west coast vendor.
We shall see what it offers shortly. |
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j_dirge Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007 Posts: 4641 Location: Twain Harte, CA
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Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 10:05 am Post subject: |
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Down ward travel (droop) on my 1989 2WD Westy GL is/was limited in the front, first by the shock.. then by the radius control arm.
The Bilsteins HDs I have now also appear to be the limiter, first,.. then the radius control arm. I could get you some measurments on droop next time I am messing around with the van. May be tonight?
In other words.. if you unbolt the shock, the front travel still stops as the RCA binds the travel downward.
No getting around that if you want to remain in alignment in normal driving. Although Burley UCAs may help a little. I can not speak to that.
Front droop on a 2WD is not dangerous.. since there's little to no driving force on those wheels.. no driveline and torque.
In the rear, the travel extension downward is/was also limited by the shock, first.
However, if you unbolt the shock, the control arm stops well before the spring pops out.. That is the axle and CVs binding to stop further extension. (and the brake lines can hang up.. not good)
Soo.. I have settled on leaving the fronts alone, for now.. and I allow about 21.5-22" total travel down in the rear on a long travel shock.. 20" is allowed by using a short travel shock travel shock.
That is with a static ride height of ~18" on 2010 vintage synro.org springs.
You need to be real careful here.. Because two things go on.. One is that too much travel in the rear can break a CV in more strenuous use. This is where a limiting strap would be good. But its not really a huge problem with an open differential.
And 2. Too long a shock may mean the shock bottoms out before the true bumpstop hits.. and that could mean a broken shock mount (or worse).
Just my limited experience, speaking. _________________ -89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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Last edited by j_dirge on Tue May 22, 2012 5:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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r.e.wing_fc3s Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2010 Posts: 591 Location: Vanagon Capitol USA: Bellingham, WA
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Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 10:13 am Post subject: |
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im not sure i understand how aftermarket parts effect the realtionship between increased ride height and decreased droop. i looked on burleys site at the upper/lower control arms and it doesnt mention anything about maintaining droop after increasing static height. when i think of the front suspension as a kind of parallelogram it seems difficult to increase static height without sacrificing droop, seems like you would have to start messing with lower control arm pickup points. _________________ Reference Automotive: NW Washingtons Vanagon Specialist. (360)366-6965. referenceautomotive.com |
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r.e.wing_fc3s Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2010 Posts: 591 Location: Vanagon Capitol USA: Bellingham, WA
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Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 10:16 am Post subject: |
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j-? are you running stock cv's in the back?
It looked like the radius rods would be the limiting factor after the shocks in the front, thanks for the confirmation. _________________ Reference Automotive: NW Washingtons Vanagon Specialist. (360)366-6965. referenceautomotive.com |
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insyncro Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 15086 Location: New York
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Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 10:34 am Post subject: |
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I'm refering to other than Burley parts.
Bottom line, change one part that impacts the geometry and you are going to have to change far more than you expect to get the van properly aligned.
Getting more compression or extension travel comes with a large ticket price.
I would stay stock or go big...I don't see much in the middle.
There are long travel shocks available, limiting straps must be used.
I am speaking from experience with lifting and lowering numerous 2wd and Syncro Vanagons using all currently available aftermarket parts. |
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j_dirge Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007 Posts: 4641 Location: Twain Harte, CA
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Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 11:05 am Post subject: |
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r.e.wing_fc3s wrote: |
j-? are you running stock cv's in the back?
It looked like the radius rods would be the limiting factor after the shocks in the front, thanks for the confirmation. |
I am still with stock CVs in the rear today.. I have not been driving my 2WD too hard off pavement and am still an open diff.... so I don't really worry about it.
We are rebuilding a transaxle with a Peloquin.. when that goes in, I will likely do a 930CVs conversion at the same time or shortly after.
I'd give you an estimated date of "when".. but geez.. its been a slow road.
More droop out of the front end looked like the "law of diminshing returns", applied.
I can't see how we could get more downward travel without large mods to RCAs and overall geometry and structure.. Thats getting over my head... and currently beyond my reasonable interest level. I sure would pay attention, though, if someone were looking to build a long travel 2WD. I've been looking here and there over the years.. but nada pops up.
Anyone else out there? _________________ -89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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r.e.wing_fc3s Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2010 Posts: 591 Location: Vanagon Capitol USA: Bellingham, WA
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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im curious if anyone out there that is running the moog chevy s-10 springs on the front can tell me how much droop you have after the lift. seriously thinking applying these to the van, but as always i know messing with the suspension is kind of an excercise in compromise. i want more clearance in front but i dont want to be crashing down into uneven terrain because i only have an inch or two of downtravel. _________________ Reference Automotive: NW Washingtons Vanagon Specialist. (360)366-6965. referenceautomotive.com |
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r.e.wing_fc3s Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2010 Posts: 591 Location: Vanagon Capitol USA: Bellingham, WA
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Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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i know some folks are running the s10 springs. anyone measured down travel before and after? _________________ Reference Automotive: NW Washingtons Vanagon Specialist. (360)366-6965. referenceautomotive.com |
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burleymotorsports Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2005 Posts: 332
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Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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r.e.wing_fc3s wrote: |
i know some folks are running the s10 springs. anyone measured down travel before and after? |
I am interested in that data too.
I am also interested in the stock front spring rate of a 1985 2wd Vanagon. These are the tallest stock springs that came from VW.
They ride nice and provide a nice lift. Several customers of our customers have simply installed these springs along with 1'' spacer on top.
Although this combo does require Burley Upper control arms to get it aligned properly , I make a specific version for this combo.
This is actually how I originally got into the 2wd ''lifted Burley Tubular upper control arms.
As most of you know I now make several versions , including a version that is specifically made to fit with the GW springs for both the new version and old version of there springs so that it can be aligned properly.
Another advantage of using Burley arms is that when the van is at full droop the arm clears the spring.
Causing no need for the ball joint spacer.
We found that at full droop the ball joint spacer hits the spring , hence another full droop limiting factor.
So lets see with that said, we should be able to figure out the max droop of a stock suspension component van by knowing the max droop of a van with the 2'' lift GW springs, would'nt you think ?
Now all we need is someone with that combo to chime in and measure there van for us and share the data.
Then we could figure out how much more droop my arms add.
Silly me I never measured this when I build the arms. This is one of those things that makes me go Hmmm.
The stock 1985 front spring is what is known as a ''convensionally wound ''
type spring and its uninstalled height is 16''. Now if we can get the rate , we can go shopping for some springs.
I know the circle track guys have this length in many rates. I would think it should be around 500lbs or so.
I have some 1985's here , my spring rater is broken, so I need to send these out and have them checked so I can share. Burley _________________ Protect your investment !
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I will not see your PM.
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syncro.org Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2005 Posts: 139 Location: San Francisco
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:00 am Post subject: |
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Only a very small number of 2WD Vanagon owners have a genuine need to lift their vans higher than roughly 17".
It makes little sense to do it unless you have a special need. Why?
1. Taller springs will not handle as well on the pavement;
2. Taller springs are less safe and the van will roll over easier the taller it is;
3. Taller than 17" takes you outside the stock paradigm and your suspension performance will suffer because you will be out of sync with the stock geometry. There will not be enough sag in the suspension under static weight to allow it to perform as designed.
4. A taller van will get worse gas mileage than a lower one, although the difference is not great.
17" is roughly the tallest spring VW made. They lowered them to reduce rollover risk in later model years.
Think through the implications of going taller and what benefits you will get versus the trade-offs.
Here is a photo of our latest production 2WD Vanagon spring, which is finally now available and is designed to maximize the stock suspension design. (Thank you, Enrique for allowing me to use the photo!)
These springs will give you maximum suspension performance utilizing the the original VW suspension geometry/design due to their height and rate. The provide about 17" of height on an empty westy and are modestly stiffer than stock. No need for any other expensive parts, extenders, etc. They ride much nicer than the Mogs, which IMO are too stiff and produce excessive noise and jarring over even little bumps and expansion joints in the freeway.
The springs are designed to give optimal performance with at least two passengers and 50lbs of cargo. These are a completely new design, with beefier fronts and rears just a tad stiffer than the last run. Chrome silicon steel - which is the best there is for springs. They come with a life-time warranty to the original purchaser. Special discount available to anyone upgrading from any of my older springs.
Sorry for the sales-pitch, but these are new arrivals and I want to let everyone know they are now finally ready! It sure took long enough!
Steve |
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burleymotorsports Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2005 Posts: 332
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:57 am Post subject: |
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I think it boils down to different strokes for different Volks.
Some want the basicly stock look as shown in your picture, others want a lifted look. To say that the lifted look will get worse gas mileage , I think that may be a stretch , a fractional difference if any at all, imho.
As for the handling on the pavement , that is also debatable because a good suspension guy can set it up through the correct combo of shocks and springs so it has the reasonably best of both worlds.
Personally I dont sell springs so I don't have a vested interest one way or the other.
I just enjoy figuring out a variety of systems.
How much testing have you done with this new batch of springs ?
Checking settling and consistancy ?
What country are they made in ? _________________ Protect your investment !
Buy only genuine Burley Motorsports products
I will not see your PM.
Please email us directly through our website at http://www.burleymotorsports.net . Thank you.
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syncro.org Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2005 Posts: 139 Location: San Francisco
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:13 am Post subject: |
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Burley,
I agree, different strokes for different folks. But there is no denying my main points. They are based on physics, not opinion. A taller van will not corner as well (all else being equal), it will roll over easier and once you get much beyond 17" you are outside the VW design parameters and suspension performance will suffer. And while I agree that going higher will have a negligible effect on mileage, it will have some. Look at the expense VW went to to put the air dam on the front for that very reason.
I also forgot to mention the added stress on cv joints.
Some people have a specific reason for needing to go taller. That's where the different strokes for different folks comes in. But if there is not a specific need, one ought to be aware of the trade-offs so an informed decision can be made.
I could have made and can make my springs any height. I could have made a taller spring no problem. But for the reasons above, I didn't. It would only serve a very small number of people. And if anyone gets killed in a roll over, I would not feel so great about that. VW was clearly worried about that when they lowered the height on vanagons post 1985 (when roll-overs were big news).
These springs have been in testing for about 6 months (on top of the 12 years I have been making vanagon springs). I beefed up the fronts and that new design feature is more recent, but it does not effect rate or height - it's just a material issue.
They are made in the USA.
To be clear, i am not saying people should not lift their vanagons. I am saying they should not do so without considering all of the trade-offs, because there are some significant trade-offs involved, depending on how tall you go.
Steve |
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burleymotorsports Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2005 Posts: 332
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:49 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for sharing your opinion.
I remember as a kid my dad telling me the not to modify my motorcycle.
He said the Honda company spent lots of money to make it the way they did.
I did not listen, that road was no fun to me.
We are Modifying Vans, thats what I enjoy doing along with others on this forum.
Its fun to share info on that basis with one another.
Its nice to know stock type springs are available for those who want them.
As I said before , I dont sell springs so it really does not matter to me.
I'm here for the fun and conversation , exchange of info. Thanks again for your input. Burley _________________ Protect your investment !
Buy only genuine Burley Motorsports products
I will not see your PM.
Please email us directly through our website at http://www.burleymotorsports.net . Thank you.
Web: http://www.burleymotorsports.net
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timbo Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2006 Posts: 194 Location: Port Moody BC Canada
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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has anyone thought of modifying the radius rod from a bushing end into a heim joint style?
......... if the radius rod is a limiter, maybe a heim set-up could change that issue? I may be wrong in thinking this but the radius arm/bushing set-up only moves up and down but has a limit on it's travel.
...sorry for the slight thread derail..... _________________ 1988 Vanagon GL/ 1991 2.2 Subie power
"Never tell a lie and you'll never have to play dumb" Anthony Kiedis |
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burleymotorsports Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2005 Posts: 332
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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timbo wrote: |
has anyone thought of modifying the radius rod from a bushing end into a heim joint style?
......... if the radius rod is a limiter, maybe a heim set-up could change that issue? I may be wrong in thinking this but the radius arm/bushing set-up only moves up and down but has a limit on it's travel.
...sorry for the slight thread derail..... |
Timbo , I am so glad you have joined the conversation.
I thought about this idea for a couple years now. It can be done with out that much work too. Make a bracket that weld's or maybe even bolts on where the radius rod goes through the frame, thisa would slightly change the asymmetrical lower control arm geometry that VW has going on down there, but I dont think we will notice it.
I also know that if we just put a slight bend in the radius rod just behind the rear adjuster not it will make a huge droop change. All it will take is a couple degrees.
Most dont know it but the Vanagon front end geometry is very similar to a ford ranger , only in a inverted fashion. When we lift the old Rangers with the twin I beam suspension system we move the radius rod position on the I beam to the top and put a heim on the back. See the radius rod will never travel past horizontal position so we take the slake from the top and add it to the bottom, angle wise that is.
Hey Timbo how are those Burley upper control arms treating you ? _________________ Protect your investment !
Buy only genuine Burley Motorsports products
I will not see your PM.
Please email us directly through our website at http://www.burleymotorsports.net . Thank you.
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timbo Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2006 Posts: 194 Location: Port Moody BC Canada
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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Burl ! Arms are great ! Just had the front end apart again , pulled the 85 Westy springs out and put in a pair of much stiffer MOOG 5662 springs with a 1" nylon spacer on top.....had to spray a quick shot on the heim on one side for a winter squeek but they have been sweet since install! Heading down your way in the next few weeks! If there's time we'll stop by ........!!
I'm thinking the heim radius ends could/should be pretty simple (with my minimal fab. skills ) but would it be worth it? I know I had to clearance a bit for a small tapping from the radius rod bushing end washer....but would a heim set-up be ideal ? trim the radius rod bushing area off and make a complete new mount for the heim to sandwich mount between?.hmmmm......that'd get rid of that sharp corner I've banged my head on a few times......damn wish I had a shop to try this sh*% out. _________________ 1988 Vanagon GL/ 1991 2.2 Subie power
"Never tell a lie and you'll never have to play dumb" Anthony Kiedis |
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swissarmychainsaw Samba Member
Joined: March 02, 2019 Posts: 279 Location: San Francisco
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Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: Suspension down travel/droop- limiting factors? |
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Reviving a long dead thread.
Anyone try ORI Struts on a van? They sound like pure magic as they replace:
Shock, bumpstops, limiting straps, and springs... oh and sway bars! |
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6345 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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swissarmychainsaw Samba Member
Joined: March 02, 2019 Posts: 279 Location: San Francisco
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:38 am Post subject: Re: Suspension down travel/droop- limiting factors? |
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ALIKA T3 wrote: |
I dunno them but the rears would be an issue to address at the upper mount.... |
Yes, I'm thinking about what all the 4x4 guys do: Build new mounts for the suspension.
Not sure what that would be like since these are unibody though, but there is NO WAY that I'm the only one that has considered custom suspension for better off roading! |
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