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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
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Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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 Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:46 pm Post subject: Re: '69 FI Squareback: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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Bypass the dam damper and go in peace. Oh, and check your email
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Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: '69 FI Squareback: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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Yes.....the dampers occasionally make noise. You have to understand whats inside......nothing.
Its a fast turn and a small volume accumulator. It actually causes a twist in the fuel flow that damps some turbulence that can cause cavitation......and if any air gets sucked in it helps tosplit it up onto smaller bubbless. Its a harmonic damper of sorts.
That being said....if its making constant noise....sometjing in the inlet flow has changed.....usually pump volume. Check your fuel filter first.
Those west coasters may have been giving you their dirty fuel to take home with you 
Ray |
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D/A/N
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Joined: August 13, 2010
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: '69 FI Squareback: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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Well, it turned out to be the fuel filter!!
Jim Adney gave us a tip about how to check if it was the filter or the screen in the tank: we removed the hose from the inlet side of the fuel pump and there was a steady but thin stream that turned into a slow drip. When I removed the hose from the inlet side of the filter, we both got a gasoline bath. Not the most fun at 9 am in a hotel parking lot, but at least we fixed the problem and everything is back to normal.
I turned the filter upside down and a bunch of little black crap came out. It seemed like it'd be too big to have gotten past the sock in the tank, but there it was.
In South Bend, IN for the night......don't know if there are any Hoosiers reading this thread, but you guys drive like maniacs! And that's coming from a born and bred NY driver!
Actually, you IL drivers aren't much better, at least on I-90 and I-294 on the way into Indiana!! |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21511
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:57 pm Post subject: Re: '69 FI Squareback: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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| D/A/N wrote: |
Well, it turned out to be the fuel filter!!
Jim Adney gave us a tip about how to check if it was the filter or the screen in the tank: we removed the hose from the inlet side of the fuel pump and there was a steady but thin stream that turned into a slow drip. When I removed the hose from the inlet side of the filter, we both got a gasoline bath. Not the most fun at 9 am in a hotel parking lot, but at least we fixed the problem and everything is back to normal.
I turned the filter upside down and a bunch of little black crap came out. It seemed like it'd be too big to have gotten past the sock in the tank, but there it was.
In South Bend, IN for the night......don't know if there are any Hoosiers reading this thread, but you guys drive like maniacs! And that's coming from a born and bred NY driver!
Actually, you IL drivers aren't much better, at least on I-90 and I-294 on the way into Indiana!! |
Yes......good tech. Along with my previous point.....its interestkng that ....anything that chanes the flow volume by a lot.....pump volume....or as you found.....filter.....can cause a harmonic oscillation in that flow damper.
Really what was causng the "signal" or noise.....was the lump cavitating because it was starving. The little damper.....just magnifies those sounfs as the flow changes directions. It was still doing its job.....breaking up oscillations.....but it kind of acts like a speaker.
You will also hear noises from it when the car has sat for a while and all pressure has bled down. It will hum as pressure comes up. Ray |
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D/A/N
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Joined: August 13, 2010
Posts: 2227
Location: 11222
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:29 pm Post subject: Re: '69 FI Squareback: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
but it kind of acts like a speaker.
You will also hear noises from it when the car has sat for a while and all pressure has bled down. It will hum as pressure comes up. Ray |
Yes! I was thinking it was less of a damper and more of an amplifier when it was making noise. Also, when we were using the stock pump I remember an initial hum when turning the key. It still sometimes happens with the Airtex pump but less often for whatever reason.
Also, as an interesting aside, we visited with Jim today and picked up some parts we left for rebuild/repair. He mentioned how at some point in the past, he'd talked to a Bosch tech (or was it a Mercedes tech?????) about air and/or vapor in the fuel lines. Apparently, a suggested fix was to drill a small hole somewhere in the pressure regulator. This creates a permanent leak, which pushes the air into the return lines and allows the fuel lines to remain full of fuel, not air or vapor. Jim has never done this and he didn't mention anyone who had, but it sounds interesting either way.
Of course, I've probably botched the description a bit (correct me if I'm wrong Jim!!) but I found it interesting regardless. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21511
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:05 pm Post subject: Re: '69 FI Squareback: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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| D/A/N wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
but it kind of acts like a speaker.
You will also hear noises from it when the car has sat for a while and all pressure has bled down. It will hum as pressure comes up. Ray |
Yes! I was thinking it was less of a damper and more of an amplifier when it was making noise. Also, when we were using the stock pump I remember an initial hum when turning the key. It still sometimes happens with the Airtex pump but less often for whatever reason.
Also, as an interesting aside, we visited with Jim today and picked up some parts we left for rebuild/repair. He mentioned how at some point in the past, he'd talked to a Bosch tech (or was it a Mercedes tech?????) about air and/or vapor in the fuel lines. Apparently, a suggested fix was to drill a small hole somewhere in the pressure regulator. This creates a permanent leak, which pushes the air into the return lines and allows the fuel lines to remain full of fuel, not air or vapor. Jim has never done this and he didn't mention anyone who had, but it sounds interesting either way.
Of course, I've probably botched the description a bit (correct me if I'm wrong Jim!!) but I found it interesting regardless. |
Bluntly put.....no.
Look at my regulator dissection from several months ago.
The problem with this "theory"......is that it immediately causes resisdual pressure bleed down. If you were using a massive pump with a feeder pump as well.....like a Bosch 044.....kt could have enough volume on the buzz of the key to "somewhat" overcome this issue.
The idea has vreat merit....but the regulator is NOT the part,you mess with.
What you need......of you want to do something like this.....and many people have....is an accumulator between the pump and the point at the firewall where fuel is distributed into the ring main. That,accumulator will be cylindrical .....be mounted vertically.. and have the inlet about 3/4 the way up the wall. About 750 to 850 ml in volume.
The outlet is near the bottom. High preasure fuel with any bubblea comes in.....falls out and rises to the top. At the top of the dome is a spring loaded orifice or check valve . It usually only takes and orifce of about .004" to about .008". That goes to the return line. The pump if its good should keep up with thjs full time bleed along with the stabdard injectors. It kweps the air bled out constantly so it does not cause a compressible hydrostatic layer. Fuel pressure stays constant .....no harmonics.
The check valve is spring loaded to just a few psi less than normal injection pressure....like say 23 pai. You cut off the pump.....and at 23 psi....the check valve locks to not bleed your residual pressure off. Ray |
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ataraxia
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Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:15 pm Post subject: Re: '69 FI Squareback: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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| D/A/N wrote: |
In South Bend, IN for the night......don't know if there are any Hoosiers reading this thread, but you guys drive like maniacs! And that's coming from a born and bred NY driver!
Actually, you IL drivers aren't much better, at least on I-90 and I-294 on the way into Indiana!! |
Indiana drivers will mostly let you in/out of a lane, Illinois drivers all assume they own the f-ing road as soon as they merge onto the highway. Coming from an Illinois resident who grew up in Southern California, Illinois drivers are the worst!
The further East you go in Indiana, the better people drive and Ohio is fine once you're away from the larger cities. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21511
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:49 pm Post subject: Re: '69 FI Squareback: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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| ataraxia wrote: |
| D/A/N wrote: |
In South Bend, IN for the night......don't know if there are any Hoosiers reading this thread, but you guys drive like maniacs! And that's coming from a born and bred NY driver!
Actually, you IL drivers aren't much better, at least on I-90 and I-294 on the way into Indiana!! |
Indiana drivers will mostly let you in/out of a lane, Illinois drivers all assume they own the f-ing road as soon as they merge onto the highway. Coming from an Illinois resident who grew up in Southern California, Illinois drivers are the worst!
The further East you go in Indiana, the better people drive and Ohio is fine once you're away from the larger cities. |
......and a little further West. ...you have the "Iowegans". Living here going on five years now.....docile drivers to a fault.
Classic......everyone around here is going 10 mph under......and not paying attention. One slow guy....everyone drops into trail and goes to sleep like they have no place to be any time soon.......usually side by side .....blocking both lanes.
Maddening! Ray |
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D/A/N
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: '69 FI Squareback: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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Wait, so it's been nearly 3 months and nothing has gone wrong?  Yes it's true, more than 9k miles of trouble free FI driving have gone under the bridge!
What brings me here is a headlight bulb question.....one of my bulbs crapped out and only works on high beam while the other is fine. I switched bulbs from side to side and the problem followed the bulb. I went to Auto Zone to buy a new bulb and found that there are several different varieties of H4 bulb ranging from "regular" to "intense white xenon effect". Should I just stick with the regular ones, or is it worthwhile to step up to the ultra-brights? Would brighter ones be more of a draw on the electrical system? |
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KTPhil 
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: '69 FI Squareback: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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Typically the designations are BS. They are not Xenon, not HID, they are halogen. They often put a blue tint on the glass to make them LOOK like HID, but they are not. They just dim the light and color it bluer.
Check the wattage and match your old bulb. I use the standard or "pure white" (another misnomer). Brighter bulbs for a given wattage mean less life. Vanilla bulbs work fine, especially with the E-code pattern lenses.
Congrats on the three months. 9K in 3 months! You sure drive a lot! |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: '69 FI Squareback: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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| D/A/N wrote: |
Wait, so it's been nearly 3 months and nothing has gone wrong? Yes it's true, more than 9k miles of trouble free FI driving have gone under the bridge!
What brings me here is a headlight bulb question.....one of my bulbs crapped out and only works on high beam while the other is fine. I switched bulbs from side to side and the problem followed the bulb. I went to Auto Zone to buy a new bulb and found that there are several different varieties of H4 bulb ranging from "regular" to "intense white xenon effect". Should I just stick with the regular ones, or is it worthwhile to step up to the ultra-brights? Would brighter ones be more of a draw on the electrical system? |
They will only be a higher draw....if they are a higher wattage rating.
What makes this "brighter".....meaning more lumens......will be if they are listed as a higher kelvin color temp range. Typical normal headlights....sealed beam.....have a color temperature of about 3500 to 3800.
An improvement are the silvania Silverstar which are 4200 kelvin.....which are still slightly in the yellow/white range. For a benchmark.
..."basic" standard bulb HID lights are between 5000 and 6000 kelvins. Typically above 5500 kelvins many people see as blue or bluish......which is not really true...its white....but contains enough of the faster blue spectrum to make it visually seem blue.
High performance HID's can go all the way to 12,000 kelvins. The problem is that once you get to about 8000 kelvins.....the actual amount of illuminating light....lumens....drops sharply because the gas/metal mix in these lamps is so narrow in spectrum that it does not have any of the yellow,red and green spectrums that give higher lumen volume to the output.
What many dont understand.....is that as tbe spectrum gets more efficient in the upper range.....faster blue and violet wavelengths.....even at the same wattage level.....the lumen level can increase because the extra gas mix increases the efficiency of the lamps wattage usage.....and the extra spectrum produced increases the CRI or color rendering index.
So.....keeping the same wattage lamp.....if you can go up to a color temperature of 4200 to 5200.....it will make a difference.
These are NOT to be confused with those crappy dyed or doped lamps made to make "rice rocket" headlights look blue. An example of this is the PIAA cool white lamp which IS a higher Kelvin rating.....but also is externally doped or painted blue.....for "curb appeal"....as the literature notes.
Also the Silvania Silverstar ZXE.....falls into this category as well....doped lamp
When I replaced the bulbs on my 2006 Jetta I used STANDARD Silverstars. Good improvement.
Later I used Silverstar Ultra's on a friend of mines Golf....BIG improvement. More light volume on the road and at the sides....brighter....same throw distance because its the same wattage ...sharper detail. Ray
Last edited by raygreenwood on Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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raygreenwood
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Posts: 21511
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: '69 FI Squareback: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
Typically the designations are BS. They are not Xenon, not HID, they are halogen. They often put a blue tint on the glass to make them LOOK like HID, but they are not. They just dim the light and color it bluer.
Check the wattage and match your old bulb. I use the standard or "pure white" (another misnomer). Brighter bulbs for a given wattage mean less life. Vanilla bulbs work fine, especially with the E-code pattern lenses.
Congrats on the three months. 9K in 3 months! You sure drive a lot! |
Not true. Some crappy bulbs are doped or tinted externally. Good ones are not.....read my post. Sorry I was typing as you posted. But it is true that higher CRI lamps are a shorter life.
I actually had to run color temp tests 6 years ago on halogen and fluorescent lamps for an article on lighting I did for a print industry magazine. We used a transmission densitometer/colorimeter. High quality lamps....if they stay at correct gas temp...are pretty close to advertized.....and produce higher lumins. We checked headlamp lamps as basic benchmarks as well as indoor industrial lighting.
Those crappy "dyed" lamps.....were as you note.....not close to anything because the dye acts as a filter for a wide range of the spectrum of the lamps. Ray |
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notchboy
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Location: Escondido CA
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D/A/N
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| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: '69 FI Squareback: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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| notchboy wrote: |
| What ever came of the gas heater? |
The gas heater is still hanging there above the transmission. A plastic "aerator" part for the fuel line broke in 2012 and the fuel pump got lost when the car was in OR back in 2014. This spring, we finally removed the booster fan from the engine bay as it was often in the way for maintenance tasks. Plus, using the fan was problematic as it would sometimes refuse to turn off or else would randomly turn on when we closed a door, the trunk, or went over a bump in the road. When we removed the fan and the hoses it necessitated, we plugged up the extra holes in the fan-shroud-to-heat-exchanger elbows. Then, we removed the heater exhaust pipe as it would get in the way when adjusting the valves on the passenger side. We plugged the hole in the heater as well. It'd be nice to have a working gas heater, but no one seems to know how the heck to work a BA-4 heater on a Type 3. From what I gather, it was a OYO thing. |
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notchboy
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Posts: 22448
Location: Escondido CA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:43 pm Post subject: Re: '69 FI Squareback: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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OYO to a certain degree. Its got alot to do with a BA6 and fundamentally works the same as a BN2 & 4. Unfortunately the gas heaters are a Bus thing or Thing thing for the most part. I asked now as I only recently saw again it had the BA4 and am for sure willing to help if you want it working.
Ive been messing with BN4s
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=614419&highlight=
_________________
| t3kg wrote: |
OK, this thread is over. You win. |
Jason "notchboy" Weigel
1964 1500 S
1964 T34 S Convertible
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21511
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:14 am Post subject: Re: '69 FI Squareback: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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| D/A/N wrote: |
| notchboy wrote: |
| What ever came of the gas heater? |
The gas heater is still hanging there above the transmission. A plastic "aerator" part for the fuel line broke in 2012 and the fuel pump got lost when the car was in OR back in 2014. This spring, we finally removed the booster fan from the engine bay as it was often in the way for maintenance tasks. Plus, using the fan was problematic as it would sometimes refuse to turn off or else would randomly turn on when we closed a door, the trunk, or went over a bump in the road. When we removed the fan and the hoses it necessitated, we plugged up the extra holes in the fan-shroud-to-heat-exchanger elbows. Then, we removed the heater exhaust pipe as it would get in the way when adjusting the valves on the passenger side. We plugged the hole in the heater as well. It'd be nice to have a working gas heater, but no one seems to know how the heck to work a BA-4 heater on a Type 3. From what I gather, it was a OYO thing. |
Its not an OYO thing! 
You should have asked about the BA4......I have tons of experience with it. There is vritually nothing I cannot fix or repair with it. There is also TONS of information for it. The manuals I have, and are on line.....and.....it came stock in the VW 411 and 412.....not the bus.
The bus is similar (BA6)......you should have looked and asked on the 411/412 forum.
Start a thread for your heater and I can help you get it going. Ray
Last edited by raygreenwood on Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:54 am; edited 1 time in total |
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notchboy
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Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 22448
Location: Escondido CA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:31 am Post subject: Re: '69 FI Squareback: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| D/A/N wrote: |
| notchboy wrote: |
| What ever came of the gas heater? |
The gas heater is still hanging there above the transmission. A plastic "aerator" part for the fuel line broke in 2012 and the fuel pump got lost when the car was in OR back in 2014. This spring, we finally removed the booster fan from the engine bay as it was often in the way for maintenance tasks. Plus, using the fan was problematic as it would sometimes refuse to turn off or else would randomly turn on when we closed a door, the trunk, or went over a bump in the road. When we removed the fan and the hoses it necessitated, we plugged up the extra holes in the fan-shroud-to-heat-exchanger elbows. Then, we removed the heater exhaust pipe as it would get in the way when adjusting the valves on the passenger side. We plugged the hole in the heater as well. It'd be nice to have a working gas heater, but no one seems to know how the heck to work a BA-4 heater on a Type 3. From what I gather, it was a OYO thing. |
Its not an OYO thing!
You should have asked about the BA4......i have tons of experience with it. There is vritually nothing I cannot fix or repair with it there is also TONS of information fof it. The manuals I have and are on line.....and.....it came stock in the VW 411 and 412.....not the bus.
The bus is similar (BA6)......you should have loooed and asked on the 411/412 forum.
Start a thread for your heater and I can help you get it going. Ray |
There you go - you are on your own to fix it, but Ray knows how to do it
No one said the BA4 was on a Bus, just that Buses tend to be the VWs that have gas heaters
_________________
| t3kg wrote: |
OK, this thread is over. You win. |
Jason "notchboy" Weigel
1964 1500 S
1964 T34 S Convertible
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21511
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:53 am Post subject: Re: '69 FI Squareback: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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| notchboy wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| D/A/N wrote: |
| notchboy wrote: |
| What ever came of the gas heater? |
The gas heater is still hanging there above the transmission. A plastic "aerator" part for the fuel line broke in 2012 and the fuel pump got lost when the car was in OR back in 2014. This spring, we finally removed the booster fan from the engine bay as it was often in the way for maintenance tasks. Plus, using the fan was problematic as it would sometimes refuse to turn off or else would randomly turn on when we closed a door, the trunk, or went over a bump in the road. When we removed the fan and the hoses it necessitated, we plugged up the extra holes in the fan-shroud-to-heat-exchanger elbows. Then, we removed the heater exhaust pipe as it would get in the way when adjusting the valves on the passenger side. We plugged the hole in the heater as well. It'd be nice to have a working gas heater, but no one seems to know how the heck to work a BA-4 heater on a Type 3. From what I gather, it was a OYO thing. |
Its not an OYO thing!
You should have asked about the BA4......i have tons of experience with it. There is vritually nothing I cannot fix or repair with it there is also TONS of information fof it. The manuals I have and are on line.....and.....it came stock in the VW 411 and 412.....not the bus.
The bus is similar (BA6)......you should have loooed and asked on the 411/412 forum.
Start a thread for your heater and I can help you get it going. Ray |
There you go - you are on your own to fix it, but Ray knows how to do it
No one said the BA4 was on a Bus, just that Buses tend to be the VWs that have gas heaters |
Yep...got that....and the bus BA6...is actually so very close in parts.....if you can work on a BA6...short of a few small details you should be able to work on a BA4.
In ClassicCampers 412 build thread there is a LOT of back and forth trouble shooting going on that is very helpful. The key to making one of these work is having ALL of the parts and components and wiring in tip top shape.
There are "0" missing parts allowed. Ray |
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D/A/N
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: '69 FI Squareback: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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I got the OYO idea from the parts manual that lists the heater parts as only applying to a limited range of Type 3 chassis numbers spanning from late 68 to 69. I could be mistaken though. In any case, I'm missing parts 16, 17, 23, and 26 from this diagram. Maybe I'll hit up the classifieds!
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: '69 FI Squareback: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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D/A/N.....#16 is the fuel line accumulator so that the pump has a volume to pull from. It goes in the return line from the EFI. They are hard to find and fragile....and I can show you how to simply make one from plumbing parts.
#17 is just a Y fitting. One from any fuel injection return line from D-jet will work. #26.....you mean just the bracket from the fuel pump? I may have a spare.
The trick of this system is making sure that all the parts are functioning...coil...fuel pump....spark plug/glow plug.....the two sets of trigger points inside of the main blower motor....the adjustment of the fan on the shaft.....the resistance of the temp probe....heat thermostat....and the high temp cut off switch. Having functioning doubel relay and reset ssitch come into play once you get ready to fire it up. Then...understanding that it has at least two safety systems...one of which will prevent start up if the fuel supply line has been allowed to run dry. You have to keep resetting the system after waiting for it to time out.....it has a timer that shuts the system down for a cool off period if it runs X amount of time without flame.
So once everything is functioning.....you have to keep resetting it until fuel reaches the combustion chamber. Once this happens you will get sustained running.
Lots of little things. Yes.....this system was rare on type 3...but was common on virtually all type 4 cars. Ray |
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