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EverettB 
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
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Location: Phoenix Metro
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notchboy
Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2002
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Location: Escondido CA
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bobnorman
Samba Newfoundlander
Joined: August 09, 2010
Posts: 1389
Location: Newfoundland
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 Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:02 am Post subject: Re: My 1964 Birch Green Canadian Squareback |
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Thanks guys. Static timing is next.
Pulled the distributor last night, and decided to give it a once over. In case anyone is interested, here’s a look inside a 111 905 205M (Bosch 147 002).
It was pretty dirty inside and out, with a bit of up and down play in the shaft.
Advance plate was seized solid. Took a bit of soaking and careful prying to get it free. Not sure if this would cause the no start/backfiring problem, but I’m sure it didn’t help.
Parts all cleaned up and ready to go back together. Used a small bit of Bosch distributor grease around the shims/washers and on the points lobe. Put engine oil on the shaft. It was missing a fiber washer and one shim, replaced those and that took care of the up and down movement .
All reassembled and ready to go back in.
Not a lot of time left over these days between work and family responsibilities, and these late nights are killing me, but it’s all fun and will be worth it when I hear this car run.
I’ll try the distributor tonight. Meantime I had another thought. Could it be the coil? I’m using a new aftermarket 12 volt coil. I also know there are coils with specific part numbers for the Type 3 (not sure why). Could the backfiring/possible timing issue be caused by either:
a) A crappy aftermarket coil, or
b) A Bosch coil not made specifically for Type 3 application?
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Air does not freeze. Air does not boil.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=289807 |
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Rob356
Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2016
Posts: 13
Location: Cleveland, OH
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: My 1964 Birch Green Canadian Squareback |
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It shouldn't be the coil.
Start from the basics, make sure the plug wires are correct, the vacuum advance could be the issue. Make sure the cap and rotor are good. Lastly you may want to check and see if the distributor drive is in the correct position. If it is 180 degrees out it will cause backfiring and may not run.
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1964 bug - drag car
1965 bug - original resto
1957 356A
1965 Notchback - current project |
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Rome
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004
Posts: 9637
Location: Pearl River, NY
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: My 1964 Birch Green Canadian Squareback |
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I checked a few photos of original single-carb engines in the gallery. Nearly all have the spark plug wires clocked one position clockwise from yours. Here's one, from EverettB- the #1 plug wire is directly next to the generator (pointing directly to the left side of the car).
Yours-
So- try repositioning your plug wires 1 terminal clockwise... |
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ibjack
Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2002
Posts: 2105
Location: Imperial Beach CA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:15 pm Post subject: Re: My 1964 Birch Green Canadian Squareback |
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| Rome wrote: |
I checked a few photos of original single-carb engines in the gallery. Nearly all have the spark plug wires clocked one position clockwise from yours. Here's one, from EverettB- the #1 plug wire is directly next to the generator (pointing directly to the left side of the car).
Yours-
So- try repositioning your plug wires 1 terminal clockwise... |
A 64 would come with the one year only R3 distributor which has number one cylinder plug wire in the correct position that you have. My 64 t34 has a late distributor, 311 905 205F that has the number one plug wire 180 degrees from where yours is. Since your using a bug distributor, which I believe normally is 180 degrees different that a type 3 then you should be ok. That being said it would hurt to try moving the wires 180 degrees just to see what happens. Hope I didn't confuse you.
_________________
'68 Lotus White T34 automatic sunroof
'64 Manila Yellow T34
'65 Sea Blue Square Panel
the1500club.com
Shop Lacky at the T3/34 Factory, https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100094313902074 |
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bobnorman
Samba Newfoundlander
Joined: August 09, 2010
Posts: 1389
Location: Newfoundland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:46 am Post subject: Re: My 1964 Birch Green Canadian Squareback |
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Thanks for the comments folks, It takes a village... and clearly I'm the village idiot. How could I have missed the plug wires!?
I was out at it for a while last night, replaced the distributor and coil, but gave up after a short while as the battery was low again. I only saw these posts last night after and draining the battery. I made the rookie mistake of going by what was there… Assuming the car ran when parked in the 70s and that the wires hadn't been moved or touched since. I’ll charge it this afternoon and try again tonight. Also got some new parts in today, points, cap and plugs, though I think mine are ok.
| ibjack wrote: |
A 64 would come with the one year only R3 distributor which has number one cylinder plug wire in the correct position that you have. My 64 t34 has a late distributor, 311 905 205F that has the number one plug wire 180 degrees from where yours is. Since your using a bug distributor, which I believe normally is 180 degrees different that a type 3 then you should be ok. That being said it would hurt to try moving the wires 180 degrees just to see what happens. Hope I didn't confuse you. |
Good suggestion, but you’re thinking of the S model, this is a 1500E with the N (single carb) engine. My distributor is the JU 4R 8 . I believe what Rome wrote to be true, the wires need to be moved clockwise.
| Rome wrote: |
| I checked a few photos of original single-carb engines in the gallery. Nearly all have the spark plug wires clocked one position clockwise from yours. Here's one, from EverettB- the #1 plug wire is directly next to the generator (pointing directly to the left side of the car)... |
We’ll see tonight!
_________________
Air does not freeze. Air does not boil.
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bobnorman
Samba Newfoundlander
Joined: August 09, 2010
Posts: 1389
Location: Newfoundland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:55 am Post subject: Re: My 1964 Birch Green Canadian Squareback |
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Just looking at the 64 1500E owner’s manual and found this. Confirms it.
One snag though, in looking at the picture for setting the timing (and also seen in the pic for the valve adjustment), the mark on the distributor for #1 is next to the generator (about 9 o’clock). But...It also appears to be a different distributor with the condenser inside. Maybe a 4R4 or a 4R6. It's apparent that VW used the same 1963 model photos for the '64E manual hence the incorrect distributor.
The 1965 N manual shows a location that would be more like mine..
Anyway I’ll mess around with it and try both positions. I'm certain now that is/has been the problem.
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Air does not freeze. Air does not boil.
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EverettB
Administrator
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bobnorman
Samba Newfoundlander
Joined: August 09, 2010
Posts: 1389
Location: Newfoundland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:12 am Post subject: Re: My 1964 Birch Green Canadian Squareback |
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It’s ALIVE!!! 
Had a couple minutes lunchtime, charged the battery a bit and decided to give it a go… Advanced the plug wires two spaces from where they were, cranked it over, and I’ll be damned...it started right up and kept running! Shut it off after about 10 seconds. Loads of smoke. Burning up the Marvel Mystery Oil and 41 years of gunk I guess.
Next step is to properly set the timing and set it up for 6 volt again, then give it another go... After I figure out how to route the exhaust outside of course.
This feels great!! 
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Air does not freeze. Air does not boil.
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Envious
Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2003
Posts: 1821
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:17 am Post subject: Re: My 1964 Birch Green Canadian Squareback |
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Nice!!!
_________________
71 Type 1302 Custom
64 Type 151
63 Type 117 L469 Anthracite
64 Type 361 L575 Nutria
64 Porsche 356c
56 Type 113 L227 Strato Silver
52 BSA C11G
59 Heilite Single Wheel Camping Trailer
56 Allstate Single Wheel
84 Vanagon Westfalia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=388225 |
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Donnie strickland
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Joined: December 21, 2009
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MonT3
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2012
Posts: 1988
Location: South Dakota
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:20 am Post subject: Re: My 1964 Birch Green Canadian Squareback |
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VERY NICE!!! I was posting pics when I saw yours pop in. When I saw the smoke, I smiled and knew you were having that victorious look on your face. Congrats, you revived it!
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MonT3
67 Squareback
64 Squareback
63 Squareback
Engine rebuild
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:52 am Post subject: Re: My 1964 Birch Green Canadian Squareback |
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| Nice! |
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notchboy
Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 22445
Location: Escondido CA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: My 1964 Birch Green Canadian Squareback |
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| EverettB wrote: |
Nice research work. Yes, rotor inside = big caps aka 4R6 distributor.
You could rotate the engine to TDC and see where the rotor points to on the cap. |
All this back check picture stuff was kinda fun to see but this is what should of been done. The dizzy drive gear could be placed in a couple different places. There is a universal T1 & T3 setting dependent on if the motor was rebuilt or messed with over the years.
Congratulations on starting it. I love that "I can now conquer the world" feeling 
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| t3kg wrote: |
OK, this thread is over. You win. |
Jason "notchboy" Weigel
1964 1500 S
1964 T34 S Convertible
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top |
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Rome
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004
Posts: 9637
Location: Pearl River, NY
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: My 1964 Birch Green Canadian Squareback |
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 Glad it was such a simple adjustment/repair. |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22402
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: My 1964 Birch Green Canadian Squareback |
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Congrats. There's nothing like waking up a sleeping engine from a few decades of sleep.That should help you get motivated now.
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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jgerock
Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2011
Posts: 50
Location: Alexandria, VA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: My 1964 Birch Green Canadian Squareback |
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Yes - congrats on getting that Birch back started again!
My experiences in starting engines for the first time is pull/push them outside - or at least partially outside. Back around 1995 when I first got my fresh 1776 engine to fire at my parent's house, I had both doors open and a box fan to blow the fumes away from the engine (and Jet-Hot coated headers). Got the engine running and was trying to maintain 2,500-3,000 RPMs and the smoke detector inside the garage set off the whole house alarm. Oops.
And another OOPS from my first car (66 Beetle). Engine was out of the car when I bought it. Cleaned up engine, added a used Solex carb, points, condensor, cap, rotor and plug wires then installed it in the car. Tried everything to get it to fire, even hooked up a 12V battery directly to the 6V starter and pulling it down the road behind a truck. After 3-4 days of messing with it, the neighbor's older brother took about 2 minutes to diagnose the 180 degree out distributor. Swapped the plug wires and it started right up. |
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ALLWAGONS
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2000
Posts: 4185
Location: Pasadena CA/DTLA soon China
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: My 1964 Birch Green Canadian Squareback |
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Cool Mr. Norman! I may have a few things for your car.
Martin
allwagons
_________________
I'd be UNSTOPPABLE if not for Law Enforcement and PHYSICS.
I recycle old cars and parts, other than when I rot, that's as Green as I am going to get.
Thanks to my Tesla driving neighbors, I feel more relaxed driving my SUBURBAN and old VW's.
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bobnorman
Samba Newfoundlander
Joined: August 09, 2010
Posts: 1389
Location: Newfoundland
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 7:14 am Post subject: Re: My 1964 Birch Green Canadian Squareback |
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Thanks guys. Really appreciate all the thumbs up. It’s not the road test or anything, but it feels like the end of the beginning. I know that it’ll still be slow going, such is life right now, but as Bobnotch said it'll help me get motivated for sure.
| MonT3 wrote: |
| VERY NICE!!! I was posting pics when I saw yours pop in. When I saw the smoke, I smiled and knew you were having that victorious look on your face. Congrats, you revived it! |
I'm still smiling. Victorious is about right, I did a few Rocky-type air punches, and I don’t do Rocky-type air punches.
| notchboy wrote: |
| EverettB wrote: |
Nice research work. Yes, rotor inside = big caps aka 4R6 distributor.
You could rotate the engine to TDC and see where the rotor points to on the cap. |
All this back check picture stuff was kinda fun to see but this is what should of been done. The dizzy drive gear could be placed in a couple different places. There is a universal T1 & T3 setting dependent on if the motor was rebuilt or messed with over the years.
Congratulations on starting it. I love that "I can now conquer the world" feeling |
Would have done just that, but wasn’t near the car when I determined it was the wires/timing. So I did the next best thing and confirmed it on the computer.
You nailed it -Conquer the world. It really is a “I. have. made. Fire.” kinda feeling. Best kind.
| Rome wrote: |
| Glad it was such a simple adjustment/repair. |
And I’m glad you weighed in. I should have known. I’ve seen this before, but as I said, it takes a village, and sometimes you need a second set of eyes to see what you’re not seeing. Thanks for that. I love this Samba thing.
| Bobnotch wrote: |
| Congrats. There's nothing like waking up a sleeping engine from a few decades of sleep.That should help you get motivated now. |
Indeed it will. 40+ years by my reckoning. This car was locked away in a garage with 5 others from 1975 to 1989 or so, when my dad bought it all. I’m certain that no one has touched it since then. I really enjoyed following your T-34 project by the way. Very inspirational.
| jgerock wrote: |
Yes - congrats on getting that Birch back started again!
My experiences in starting engines for the first time is pull/push them outside - or at least partially outside. Back around 1995 when I first got my fresh 1776 engine to fire at my parent's house, I had both doors open and a box fan to blow the fumes away from the engine (and Jet-Hot coated headers). Got the engine running and was trying to maintain 2,500-3,000 RPMs and the smoke detector inside the garage set off the whole house alarm. Oops.
And another OOPS from my first car (66 Beetle). Engine was out of the car when I bought it. Cleaned up engine, added a used Solex carb, points, condensor, cap, rotor and plug wires then installed it in the car. Tried everything to get it to fire, even hooked up a 12V battery directly to the 6V starter and pulling it down the road behind a truck. After 3-4 days of messing with it, the neighbor's older brother took about 2 minutes to diagnose the 180 degree out distributor. Swapped the plug wires and it started right up. |
Yeah, I would have put it outside or at least pointed the arse-end out the door. But the car is just too pinned in to move. There’s a pile of junk on it and another project I’m working on right next to it. Plus…winter. What you described there was exactly what I did, minus the pulling it down the road.
| ALLWAGONS wrote: |
Cool Mr. Norman! I may have a few things for your car.
Martin
allwagons |
Thank you sir. I’m finally about to put some of those brake parts I got from you to good use.
Went out at it again last night, mostly to tidy - the place is in slings. When I’ve gotten garage time lately I’ve just been focused on getting it going, and things have piled up. When I opened the door it was still hazy in there, had to open the main door to clear it all out. It’s clear I have to sort out how to route the exhaust out. Not that I’m going to be running this thing inside much, but when I do (for short periods of time) I really need to get the exhaust out. Bought some metallic 25 foot 4” flexible dryer hose, and some 3’ flexible aluminium hose ...I’ll see what I can do with that.
I started it again, just briefly, and I must say I’m shocked at how smooth it runs. Idles a bit high, but no misses and no weird noises, not from the engine anyway (not yet). Seemed like there was a little less smoke this time, which is also a good sign. You’ll have to excuse the mess, but here’s a shot from the second firing last night.
The pax side axle spins a bit, which stops when you grab onto it, but it does make a clanking sound when it turns. I’m pretty certain I’ve got an issue there. It’s in by the differential. I’d like to get an idea of what it could be, but I really don’t know much about transmissions. Fulcrum plates?
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