flywheel o ring problems!

[tkgeorge_99]

Okay, I am getting a little frustrated. I have a 1970 with a newly rebuild type 1, 1600 DP. I have installed the bus's engine twice now > ! The first time, I got some oil leaking at the seam from engine to transmission. This was the first time I have ever changed a flywheel so I followed the book and did my best.
So, I called an experienced vw friend who was nice enough to come over and help me try it again. When we pulled off the flywheel, the o ring was mashed and causing the leak. So we remeasuered the end play- looked good at .004. He helped me carefully install another o ring. we lubed it real nice and made sure it was seated in the groove. And he helped me carefully re install flywheel- torqued to 220. Put the engine back in and now I am having the same oil leak as before. After my test drive I am getting a puddle about 3in across. I am using a lighter weight oil 20w-50 right now for break in. So luckily the o- rings are cheap but it does take me a few hours each time to pull the engine and I am getting pretty frustrated. Not to mention my wife, who is gettting very tired of me working on the bus. Anyone have any ideas of why this keeps happening? Any suggestions for next time?!

[telford dorr]

Usually, when the o-ring leaks, you get oil on the clutch disk. If the disk is dry, then it's more likely the main seal. Installation of this seal is somewhat critical, which is to say, if it's not done correctly it will distort and leak. You can't just hammer it in - it really needs to be pressed in carefully and symmetrically with an appropriate tool, and to the proper depth. The mating position on the flywheel needs to be correct. This mating area must be the right diameter. The seal must be pre-lubed. The drain hole behind the seal needs to be checked that it is clear and clean, otherwise the oil level behind the seal will be too high or under pressure.

Other possibilities are the cam plug, oil galley plugs, or crankcase ventilation issues.

It is assumed that the crank is in the exact center of the seal. On an improperly line bored case, this may not be so, so check it.

I always recommend running the engine out of the bus. All you need is an old bell housing to hold the starter.
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[ddesh]

Also check the case for a crack behind number 3, just another area to check.

[Desertbusman]

220 ft/lbs? That's not tight. Spec is 253 but probably most of us go tighter.

I don't think that anyone would consider 20W-50 as a lighter oil or a break-in oil for that matter.

Did you follow Tom Wilsons instructions on installing the seal, O-ring, and flywheel? And a sealant? I used Permatex Aviation on mine. What about a wear groove on the flywheel? Sometimes selectively installing the seal at a different depth is what's needed.

This time take special care in inspecting the plugs and maybe do Wilsons proceedure for checking for the #3 area case crack. I had a case that I had carefully inspected but had a pro builder go over it for cracks. And it did have a crack behind #3 where Wilson describes it. Naturally I havn't used that case but carefully looking at the area where the crack opens up you just plain can't see it even after knowing where it is.
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71 Westy

[SGKent]

there are several other common reasons oil leaks there, several which have been discussed.

1) *bad or hardened main seal and/or groove in the sealing surface on the flywheel
2) *shims have cut a groove in the crank thru to the dowel pin holes
3) *case has cracked. Behind #3 is common but there are other spots.
4) the fastener at the base of the case near the flywheel is missing, *stripped or loose.
5) *The oil is not engine oil but rather transmission fluid from a bad input shaft seal
6) The cam plug was not installed properly and is leaking.
7) oil is running back from a cylinder giving the illusion it is leaking from the engine to transmission seam.

There are probably more I have not seen or heard of. Things like the crack behind #3 can be protected against before it cracks by sending the case to someone who welds plates in those areas to strengthen the case. I have put * by the ones I experienced in 400,000 miles driven in my 1971 dual port during the years I owned it.
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[tkgeorge_99]

Okay- thanks everyone so far. Since the last o ring was mashed, I assumed that was the problem.Clearly the mashed o ring was a problem but perhaps not the only problem.
Maybe the main seal as well? The clutch was completly dry. Does everyone agree that with the o ring the clutch plate would probably be wet? thus indicating a possible main seal issue as well as the mashed o ring.
so I have several good suggestions that I will follow up on. First, running the engine outside the bus. I don't really have a set up for that but perhaps I could find a friend or take it to a shop to have it looked at. That would give me a pretty good idea of where its leaking from, right?

The case is a never used brazilian universal, so I don't think it has any cracks but a close inspection might be in order.

I am sure its engine oil and not transmission oil. I had this bus running with previous engine with not problems with imput shaft seal. and it doesn't smell or feel like the heavy weight gear oil.

So unfortunately it sounds like it could be number of problems. So I will pull the engine- AGAIN. try and run it out of bus, if I can find a way to do so to see what going on. If I can't then I will take off the flywheel, check the o ring. maybe pull the main seal and give that a go again and try again. Or I may bit the bullet and give up and take it to a vw shop to have them figure it out.

[SGKent]

usually when oil gets onto the flywheel from the glandnut area there are some holes in the flywheel that let the oil run onto the back of the flywheel to keep it off the clutch. You may want to look at the back of the flywheel when you pull it. Also wipe the case with a rag and some solvent. Let it dry and see if oil appears anywhere. You could have something like a pinhole in the casting that was missed in quality control when they made the case.
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[Tom Powell]

Would this dye and an ultraviolet light help in finding the leak?

[tkgeorge_99]

Okay- well it will be a few days but I'll pull the engine and see what I find. Thanks for everyone's help. I am hoping that its just another bad o ring or perhaps a main seal thats not seated properly.
I was a huge step for me to swap enigines, definately out of my comfort zone mechanically so I was really hoping that it would have gone smoother. But on the upside, the new engine sounds and runs great. Its just a matter of finding what going wrong with the oil leak up front.

So if I pull it off again and find another mashed o ring, what next? Is there something that I am doing or could be causing the o rings to self destruct? I want to believe its something simple . . .

[Tom Powell]

Do you and BurntToast have the same problem?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=515494

Aloha
tp

[kreemoweet]

If it's the o-ring again, I would suspect someone has sold you some improper parts. When installed, the o-ring is barely
visible in its groove in the flywheel, it's hard to imagine what could cause a correctly sized o-ring to keep getting mashed.
Also, I think real VW o-rings are graphited, no lubrication needed.

Could also be a burr or lack of slight chamfer on end of crank.
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[Amskeptic]

[tkgeorge_99]

Hmmm. . . to show my ignorance I don't even know what that is, which gives you an idea of why this is so frustrating for me. For more background, I bought this long block, switched over all the things like generator, oil cooler, etc and then had to switch flywheels because the flywheel that came with engine had a different size clutch. Don't worry it was a 12V flywheel as well. Both flywheels have the same outside diameter and same teeth. So I put my old flywheel from the orginal engine onto the new longblock. On the orginal engine, I had no issues of leakage from the front.
So Gallery plugs. . . could you give me an idea of where to look for them? And does that sound characteristic of the leaks I am describing?
When I first fire up the engine at a fast idle and then let it idle for a few minutes- very small leak- maybe a drop forming on bottom of case. If I actually drive, even a short distance, a mile or so, I get a puddle about 3 inches across as it drips out.
I am pretty sure I got the right o ring- a reputable vw place sold it to me as well as my friend who has done this a dozen times verified that it looked right. I wonder if I have a burr on the crankshaft or as someone else noted, perhaps while setting timing or putting on belt I turned engine over while the o ring didn't have proper lubrication and it mashed. Could that have happened?

[Desertbusman]

It's most likely just a damaged inner sealing surface on the main seal. get a new one and put it in. Get the red German seal.

If you don't have Tom Wilson's engine building book get it now. Between Colins advice and Wilsons instructions, just go do it.
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71 Superbug
71 Westy

[tkgeorge_99]

yeah I have the wilson book and it is getting well used. I have finally figured out a plan after sorting thru all the helpful advice.
I am going to pull the engine, take off flywheel, look at o ring, make sure there aren't any burrs or damage to crank end. carefully inspect mating surfaces. Take out main seal, look around real well for problems. Replace o ring and main seal following the book to the letter, retorque gland nut to 220+, and re install an pray I have found the problem and the leak stops.

[Desertbusman]

[eashc]

220 sounds light to me also. I always went for close to 250 as possible.

[SGKent]

253 on the single gland nut.
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[Desertbusman]

This get scary after a while
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71 Superbug
71 Westy

[Tom Powell]

254 on the drum nut, clockwise both sides
Aloha
tp