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84 Vanagon - cranks, no start (good spark, fuel & air)
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njtraderoots
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:39 pm    Post subject: 84 Vanagon - cranks, no start (good spark, fuel & air) Reply with quote

I have been unable to start my 84 Vanagon in the past few weeks. I have posted about this issue before but am looking for a clear suggestion about any electrical components that may be at fault. The fuel pump, lines, filter and injectors are all brand new and spray like crazy. The fuel in the tank is also good fuel.

The spark plugs, wires, cap and rotor are all brand new. The plugs are wet with fuel when I back them out and they spark when I ground them and crank the engine. There is no 'pop' coming from the engine when I crank the key however. I have sprayed ether in the air intake and still no 'pop'.

The battery is new and I have it fully charged when it comes time I crank it. I'm entirely lost with this situation. There is fuel, spark & air, no start. Compression is a bit low at 110psi but not too low and the van ran perfectly fine before this issue of one day never starting again. I also feel the timing gears are entirely fine as, again, it was running just fine previously. The coil seems to be a quite new Bosch coil, not sure if that could be an issue.

I know it has to be some small electrical component that is disallowing the engine to run. No idea what that could be though. Have read anything from ECU to Hall sensor to temp sensor.

Any Suggestions? Please Help!!
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wecm31
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has it ran since the new distributor?

Any chance you have the timing all messed up?
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m_brown_
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A gas engine if you truly have spark, air, and fuel will run. I would triple check firing order. Sounds like timing or firing order is really messed up. Firing order is 1-4-3-2 and rotor rotation is CW. If it is right, I doubt you are getting good spark.

edit: I just read your original topic you started a few weeks ago. You should have posted to that instead of starting a new topic. Download the protraining manual and start testing with your meter.
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matkinson13
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey njtraderoots - I'm right there with you. Just rebuilt the 1.9 in my '84 Vanagon and can't get her to start. Like you, mine will crank all day, but nothing further. Also like you, I'm getting spark (removed, grounded a plug - good spark), air, and fuel (pressure at the "T", plugs smell of gas when I pull them). Most of the ignition system is new (plugs, wires, rotor, cap). I've got the fuel pump buzz with key on, battery is charged, all connectors re-connected. But I got nothin'.

Looks like I'll be getting cozy with my multimeter.

Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of Vanagons? Could it be timing? Busted ECU? Some tiny mystery plug dangling somewhere? Only The Shadow knows!

Good luck!
matthew

(I didn't really have anything constructive to add, just wanted to let you know that you're not alone. Very Happy )
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morymob
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have u verified cyl 1 a TDC, rotor pointing AT wire position in cap with the wire running to # 1 cyl?? If dizzy moved out of bracket , loosen so it turns by hand, have someone crank eng and slowly rotate CCW fully( as u can), no try to start go the other way, u can have timing so retarded it wont do anything.
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Ahwahnee
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

m_brown_ wrote:
Firing order is 1-4-3-2 and rotor rotation is CW. If it is right, I doubt you are getting good spark...


Just to make this abundantly clear...

Here is how cylinders are numbered:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And what a typical distributor cap looks like:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Last edited by Ahwahnee on Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:18 am; edited 2 times in total
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matkinson13
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So a slight update on mine - I'm desperate here, ok? - thinking I may have installed something incorrectly/backwards (timing-wise), I "flipped" the order of the plug wires 180*. That is, I put number one wire at the 10-o'clock position (where number three is in the picture above), and went 1-4-3-2 from there.

Still no start, but she turns over much more easily now - sounds like she wants to start. Like in a carburated car where you pump the gas a few times to get the engine to catch (I know it won't work on the FI models, but it's that feeling).

I tried starting with number one wire at each of the other positions, but nothing. The situation above seemed the most promising.

So I'm thinking it's a timing issue, possibly. We'll see.

I hope you're having luck on yours, njtraderoots...
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GONE: 2003 Honda Odyssey - the missus'
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njtraderoots
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is interesting because I don't recall the plug wires being in that order when the van was running, and between the time it decided to not start and my initial adamant cranking, I made no change to the wires - but I am beginning to feel like something is definitely shot with the timing - I will get to addressing it first thing in the morning… Thank you so much!
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the distributor fully seated? Remove the cap and verify the rotor spins when you crank the engne. Woult not be the first time.
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wecm31
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rsxsr wrote:
Is the distributor fully seated? Remove the cap and verify the rotor spins when you crank the engne. Woult not be the first time.


Embarassed Are you watching me work in my shop??

Just yesterday when reassembling my engine I thought I had the
dizzy fully seated. But then cranking the engine over to prime the oil system,
I noticed it wasn't turning consistently. And the rotor was free to turn.
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Gone are the days we stopped to decide
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The distributor hold down clamps over time get deformed and can keep it from seating properly. It was more common with the points distributors because the timing always had to be adjusted at tune up.
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snwbrdr435
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahwahnee wrote:
m_brown_ wrote:
Firing order is 1-4-3-2 and rotor rotation is CW. If it is right, I doubt you are getting good spark...


Just to make this abundantly clear...

Here is how cylinders are numbered:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And what a typical distributor cap looks like:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So if thats the cylinder layout then the photo with the distributor cap is wrong?
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m_brown_
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The numbers on the cap are right, but the 3 and 4 on the wires on the left of the picture look weird. Can't see the full picture, but the wires probably cross out of the frame.
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Ahwahnee
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

m_brown_ wrote:
The numbers on the cap are right, but the 3 and 4 on the wires on the left of the picture look weird. Can't see the full picture, but the wires probably cross out of the frame.


Correct. It isn't my distributor but came from someone I was trying to help -- yes, the wires looked wrong but he assured me they got to where they were supposed to be.

Here is a less misleading example (mine):

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Yeah, I number and label when I am clear-headed -- like the surgeons who write 'cut other leg' on your good limb.

PS - I changed my prior post as I, too, did not like that image.
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Jake de Villiers
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

snwbrdr435 wrote:
Ahwahnee wrote:
m_brown_ wrote:
Firing order is 1-4-3-2 and rotor rotation is CW. If it is right, I doubt you are getting good spark...


Just to make this abundantly clear...

Here is how cylinders are numbered:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And what a typical distributor cap looks like:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So if thats the cylinder layout then the photo with the distributor cap is wrong?


No. The firing order is 1-4-3-2. The cylinder numbering is somewhat arbitrary.
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matkinson13
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

STILL nothing on my van.

So far I've:
- Tried all different "starting" places on the distributor cap for #1 wire (and following firing order from there) - now I'm back to "normal"
- Re-readjusted valves in case something was wrong there (started at 2x turns past valve contact, tried 1.5x past contact, now just at contact)
- Used Bentley/Digijet manuals to test most ignition-related items (most check out, but see below)
- Pulled a plug to check for spark (good spark)
- Stared at the engine intensely, hoping I could telepathically get it to work

The ONLY thing that I've found - one of my Hall generator wires' insulation (on distributor plug) is cracking. Not sure if wire is entirely broken or just cracked insulation. Would I still be able to get spark if it were broken all the way? Could this be the problem?

Thanks...

ETA: Aaaaaannnnnndddd....now I'm not getting the key-on "fuel-pump-buzz". Things are going from bad to worse. Dammit, Jim!
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GONE: 2003 Honda Odyssey - the missus'
2008 Subaru Impreza - daily driver
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kaeferman
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:22 pm    Post subject: Re: 84 Vanagon - cranks, no start (good spark, fuel & air) Reply with quote

So what happened? Any info would be a help to the rest of us..!
I would suggest more careful and systematic study of the electrical system components using the Bentley testing. You can also test the plug from the ecu for problems with the wiring itself; bad grounds or shorts or something reading out of specs to point you in the right direction.
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Ahwahnee
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:41 pm    Post subject: Re: 84 Vanagon - cranks, no start (good spark, fuel & air) Reply with quote

kaeferman wrote:
So what happened?...


Not likely to find out as he has not visited the Samba in a couple of years.

If you look at his signature line (which is as he last had it, not necessarily as it was when this thread was active) it shows:

Quote:
GONE: 1984 Vanagon GL, 4 sp (natch) - new money pit
GONE: 2003 Honda Odyssey - the missus'
2008 Subaru Impreza - daily driver


So apparently he unloaded the 84 van.
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kaeferman
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:34 pm    Post subject: Re: 84 Vanagon - cranks, no start (good spark, fuel & air) Reply with quote

Thanks Ahwhanee, you re good at the slutheing.
But don t you just hate the dead end thread?! The OP or thread starter ought to be obligated or encouraged to share with the community the outcome. It really reduces the usefulness of all the effort of those who offered advice and ideas. Or at least it leaves it hanging there as an unknown as to whether this or that advice was really correct.
I m probably beating a dead horse on this issue huh?

I'm going to search my old posts and make sure I have at least offered a conclusion whenever I asked for help. because a lot of good folks have taken the time to post helpful advice and plenty more have and will come by at a later date read what was saved here in the future as they seek a solution to their V dub's ailments. Maybe the dead end threads ought to be deleted at some point to make room on a server somewhere. Isn't data money? I digress...
Thanks again for the reply and thanks for all those thanksless posts you and others have done that end up on dead end threads
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Ahwahnee
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:49 pm    Post subject: Re: 84 Vanagon - cranks, no start (good spark, fuel & air) Reply with quote

Well maybe whoever bought that 84 van will show up here. It was a rebuild the OP was never able to get running so the problem may still exist.
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