Porsche 944 axles and 944 CV's for Vanagons

[Jon_slider]

> So which would be the better CV (quality/longevity) for my stock axles.... Empi Off Road T2 CV Joints with the hardened balls and cages or would a Lobro 944 CV be the best?

I tried the empi offroad t2 joints for about 3k miles, then replaced them with Lobro 944's

the empi joints were loose to begin with, and got looser. Upon inspection, one of the empi stars was pitted.

here is the Empi 944 just before replacement, it clattered a lot while driving.

the pitted empi type 2 offroad CV star

and here is the Empi torsional Chrome molly axle that broke after being moved from driver side to passenger side, by mistake. It broke at the extra circlip groove that Burley cuts.

btw, the axle that DASMULE broke, 2" inboard of the end of the splines, no circlip groove, was a Sway Away Chrome molly with Lobro 944 CV's. He also made the mistake of moving the axle from driver side to passenger side. Dont do that, it reverses the twist of the axle.

fwiw, I have NEVER heard of a broken 930CV. I HAVE heard of several broken 944CV's. Moral of the story, Im not saying the 944's are unbreakable.

Im running the Lobro 944's on the back of my syncro for the past 1000 miles. So far no breakage, even though I have locked on the fly going up hill, have climbed steep stuff fully locked, and have yanked vans out of the sand.

I think a stock CV is fine, the only reason I went to a 944 was for the increased operating angle.

imho, you dont need 944's unless your ride height is more than 20", wheel center to fender lip.

fwiw, Im using stock front axles with 20" front ride height. I only have the 944CV's on the back. Im not using the stock axles, though they work fine, I am using Porsche 944 axles. Dont forget to clock the CV's when you install them on the axle. And make sure you dont install the CV wrong side out.
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[derekdrew]

See the info starting with page 3 of this thread for more info on the larger output shafts I had manufactured after this happened to me. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...p;start=40

-- Derek Drew

[Jon_slider]

> Moral of the story, if you dont want your axles and CV's to act as a protective fuse for your transaxle or differential, use a 930 Axle and CV to transfer the force to the differential.

Upon reflection on Derek having broken a transmission output shaft, with stock motor, axles and CV's, I disagree with my previous hyperbole.

It might be more fair to say I dont know of any 930 CV ever breaking on a Vanagon. And I have no evidence that use of 930's increase transaxle damage.

It was also pointed out to me in private discussion that the 930CV is a stock Vanagon issue on the Syncro 16. The implication then, is that the 930CV is not necessarily out of spec for a Van.

And, I will also admit, in my moment of sincerity, that breaking an axle or CV can be very dangerous if it happens in certain terrain.

Now, I try not to abuse my lockers, try not to lock on the fly under power when spinning, and so far have not broken a 944 CV. If I do though, I will seriously consider the upgrade to 930'$

thanks to everyone contributing to my education
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My Soapboxes: Inflation; Handling; Gearing; Decoupling; Swepco

[thummmper]

thank you john--
I am confident in the assembly of my shafts now--this was a nice brush-up course for me. keep those shoulders in!

[kevinm]

Does anyone have the Porsche part number for th 944cv's? It looks as if two different parts were used over the years. TIA.

[MarkWard]

Bump, I'd be curious as well to the year breakdown on what year 944 axles fit. Thank you.
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[zippyslug31]

[Jon_slider]

thanks for the link zippyslug, it always helps when people post specific questions with reference info like you did

here is the part of the link that specifically tells how to do what VanCafe is suggesting:
===

Assume you're looking at the back of the van, and the CVs are labeled with letters, like this:
A------B Transmission C------D
You can move the axles so that the letters now read:
C------D Transmission A------B (option 1) OR
D------C Transmission B------A (option 2)

These two configurations will result in the forces being applied to the CVs being reversed. Note, however, that the following configuration will NOT reverse the forces applied to the CV joint rotation:

B------A Transmission D------C

In other words, if you move the axles to the other side of the van, the forces being applied to the CVs will be reversed. If you keep them on the same side of the van, they won't. On a Syncro Vanagon, since the outer front CVs are not interchangeable with the inner front CVs, the front axles must be rotated according to option 2 above.

====

will all due respect, I completely disagree with following those instructions to move an axle from one side of the van to the other.

That causes the axle to rotate in the opposite direction, and any twist that has developed in the axle will be challenged to reverse itself.

That is how my Empi axle broke.

So yes, there is an absolute difference of opinion. I am in the camp that says NOT to move an axle to the other side of the vehicle.

I dont know if my issue is specific to torsional axles, but I recommend keeping right side axles on the right, and left side axles on the left.

Now you get to decide who to listen to, not an easy task, since I am not a professional, and VanCafe is.

fwiw, when tdwesty gave me 944 axles, he had marked them left and right when they came off the original vehicle, and we installed them on the same side they had been on in the Porsche. I trust tdwesty more than VanCafe, because he did the job and he has never done me wrong.

with all due respect, I think Van Cafe is mistaken in this situation. It is not uncommon for me to find web pages that suggest ideas I disagree with. Find yourself a confirming opinion from someone you trust.
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[syncrodoka]

With a heavy syncro that has big tires, a torquey motor and possible trail abuse like tugging a stuck vehicle i wouldn't flip the axles. A 2wd that only sees street use and no real abuse it doesn't matter nearly as much. I have never broken a axle on my 2wd and they have likely been flipped several times.

[MarkWard]

Ok, I did a little search and came across Pelican parts. The only differnce I can tell between years is the spline count. I used the replacement joint as a reference. Are these 944 joints thicker, which would require longer bolts?

http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/944M/POR_944M_SUSaxl_pg1.htm#item0

As far as the axle placement. Jon your pictures are the first pictures I have ever seen of a distorted axle shaft. Yuch

As far as rotating joints/shafts around, I would think that in a stock application you'd get more life out of the joints. You'd be shifting the load/wear faces of the balls/ramps. I would not do this without cleaning and repacking though. Perhaps that is what the recommendation is based on. I have done this myself.

Here is where I am confused. I could not think it through in my head, so before I removed my drive shafts, I marked the rotation of the joints with a marker. Holding one axle as it was installed, I am 99 % sure that when I flipped it in my hand the arrows were pointed the opposite direction which would go against your representation of A and B C and D. Maybe I am misunderstanding.

If I take the left axle A and B and mount it on the right side so A is attached to the right drive flange and B is now attached to the R/O spindle, isn't the axle turning in the same direction it was on the opposite side? All I have changed is the attachment point?

Now if I take axle A and B and flip it where B is attached to the L/O spindle and the A is attached to the transmission drive flange load and torsion have reversed? At least I think so. What am I missing? markw
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[crazyvwvanman]

The axle MUST be moved to the other side of the transmission to change the direction of the twisting force applied to the axle and to change the wear faces within the CV joints.

It is not the direction of rotation of the axle that matters, it is the direction of the twisting force from engine power that matters.

For stock vehicles and stock axles in normal use there is about ZERO history of axle shaft failure that did not originate with a failed CV joint. Swapping the axles from side to has been done on many vans with no apparent problems. Whether it really makes much difference in the long run is something I wonder about.

When you buy a rebuilt axle how would you know what side it came from, or if it had always lived on the same side for that matter?

Mark

[MarkWard]

It is not the direction of rotation of the axle that matters, it is the direction of the twisting force from engine power that matters.

I am trying to understand. Too many lost brain cells. So to show my ignorance to the world. In Jon's example. Joint B for the left side is the Master and joint A is the slave. They both rotate the same direction, but the torque is transfered from the outer cage of Joint B through the shaft to the inner cage of Joint A. Which then transfers to the outer cage of joint A and then drives the wheel. So the twisting force the joints see is opposite?

So, flipping A and B they rotate the opposite direction, and the twisting force is reversed. Moving shaft AB to the r/s maintains the rotational direction, but the driving force is reversed? Am I close?
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[hans j]

This isn't related to direction of rotation, but I did find interesting comparisons on this link that can go in a CV joint thread. http://www.blindchickenracing.com/how_to/cvjoints_axles/cv_joints_101.htm

I wouldn't mind finding a way to make the BMW joints fit either but I believe the bolt diameter is different. http://www.rorty-design.com/content/CV_joints.htm
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1986 Canadian Syncro Westy TDI - 1989 Syncro Single Cab - 2001 Audi S4 - 1981 VW Caddy ABA - 1980 VW Caddy EV - 1973 VW T-181

[crazyvwvanman]

The CV joint has balls that ride in tracks. There are tracks in both the inner cage and outer cage. The engine force puts a twisting force into the axle. That forces the balls against one side of the inner track and the other side of the outer track. This causes wear on only those sides of each track. If you swap ends of that axle but stay on the same side of the tranny the balls are still forced to the same sides of their tracks and will still wear the same spots as before. If you move that axle to the other side of the tranny the balls will be forced to the opposite sides of their tracks and wear in new spots.

It doesn't matter whether the tension force through the joint comes from the inner cage or the outer cage. What matters is which side of each track the balls are forced to roll against.

Mark

[MarkWard]

Ok, update. I took two cv inner races and a peice of conduit. I marked the load side of a ramp on each. I started with them in the A/B position. Sure enough, that is the only position where the load on the ramps and the twist on the axle is the same. It made more sense once I could see it.

Anyhow, no 944 axles for me. I ordered what were listed as new OE GKN/Lobro axles for an 86 Porsche 944 from a reputable Porsche online store. What showed up were not new or even used shafts with new CVs' These were refurbished/reman axles. The axles had rust pits that were sand blasted, painted black and that paint was peeling off. One CV had what looked like hammer marks around the outer cage. There was a Lobro manufacture date of 02/04, but someone with a dremmel had engraved their own serial number. They would have worked though,

Well they are on there way back to the reseller for credit. I ordered 4 Vanagon joint kits from IMC and will reuse my original axles. Mine is a 2WD and I don't see the articulation that a syncro will, so for now, I will live with what the VW engineers thought would work. Thank you.
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[indytriple]

I can pick up a pair of used CV/Axle assemblies off of an '87 Porsche for $40. It seems like a good deal to me. What all will I be able to use off of these on my auto tranny '87 Westy? I'm assuming that even if the axle lengths aren't correct for the auto that I can still rebuild the CV's and reuse those.
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87 Vanagon Westy Auto Bostig

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[MarkWard]

Hello, used CV's are a crap shoot. You can use the CV's, but not the axles with an automatic. I recall one shaft is longer than the other on an automatic. Realize if only one of the 4 is bad, you will need to purchase one to match the other 3. That said, I have not had much luck replacing only one CV over time. The new ones are very tight and seem to cause the loose ones to take up all the movement.
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[onwardtothestars]

I think someone missed the point about the broken axles being torsional axles.
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[Jahbah]

Does anyone know where the inner groove needs to be machined for the cv to be properly held in place? I what to put that inner clip in to avoid damage to the end of the axle shaft. Going with the type2 off-road joints on empi chromoly axle shafts.
Thanks
D
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= '86.5 SuperWestySyncroSubyWeekendermobileagon =
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Jahbah~D

[Jon_slider]