Author |
Message |
1980 Noganav Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2022 Posts: 9 Location: Tigard, OR
|
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:24 pm Post subject: 1980 Vanagon Will Not Start |
|
|
I have an air cooled Vanagon that sat for about 10 years. It has 24k original miles. It looks pretty darn good, but it does have a few rust spots.
I have cleaned the gas tank and changed all rubber hoses back there along with a new gas float. It now has a new fuel pump and filter and new fuel line to the motor. I have install rebuilt and matched fuel injectors and replaced all the fuel lines in the engine bay.
The motor turns over and it does start, but will not keep running. It runs until the starting fluid is used up. There is fuel pressure. I can hear it rushing back to the tank. I would guess that the injectors are not firing, but I don't know why. I am familiar with carburetors, not fuel injection.
I am asking for guidance from this point on. I want to approach this in a logical process and not just start replacing parts. I promise to see this to the end and report on my progress.
Thanks. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50260
|
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:25 pm Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Will Not Start |
|
|
Do you hear a relay click when you turn the key to the run position?
Have you cleaned the fuel injection grounds?
Do you have a points distributor or one that uses a Hall sender? Which ever one you have you need the wire running to the ECU hooked up to the #1 terminal on the coil.
Your Bentley should have a trouble shooting chart.
Last edited by Wildthings on Tue Jul 19, 2022 10:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17014 Location: Retired South Florida
|
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:48 am Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Will Not Start |
|
|
Not many folks left that can tune carbs. There is no magic bullet that I can offer. The AFC fuel injection is covered in chapter 24 of the factory manual. You’ll need a test light, volt ohm meter, and a fuel pressure gauge.
At a minimum. The injection needs fuel pressure. The injectors must click during cranking. So check those first. Otherwise you have to work through the troubleshooting in the manual. The AFC has a double relay that is the main power for the pump and fuel injection. They do fail. It’s mounted in the left front of the engine compartment. Some had a ground wire that shared the mounting screw. If it’s loose, the relay can be intermittent or inop. _________________ ☮️ |
|
Back to top |
|
|
pathao Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2012 Posts: 289 Location: Montreal, Canada
|
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:50 am Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Will Not Start |
|
|
Question : FED or CAL ?
I cannot remember if 1980 had the CAL version of it (I presume yes).
CAL is an another kind of beast.
1980 Noganav wrote: |
... not just start replacing parts. ... |
I think that's the proper atitude
Fuel inject is wayyyyy easier that carbs. There is nothing under that engine cover.
I would pull the injectors (and change the seals while I there) to see if they spray. The ECU receive a signal from the coil and use that to pulse the injectors (all of them at the same time) with a + signal. All injector are grounded via the resistor pack (white porcelaine bloc on the firewall).
A bit of info/reading
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/afc_f...Manual.pdf
Have fun and show us some photos of that gem you found. _________________ 1982 AC P27 - 2.0 FI FED - 091 - BA6
English is a second language to me |
|
Back to top |
|
|
GoEverywhere Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2020 Posts: 515 Location: Portland, OR
|
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 10:23 am Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Will Not Start |
|
|
pathao wrote: |
Question : FED or CAL ?
I cannot remember if 1980 had the CAL version of it (I presume yes).
|
Yep, '80 had a Cali version. It had a different (hall effect) distributor instead of points, different heater boxes, some ECU differences, and probably a few other weirdnesses I'm forgetting. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
1980 Noganav Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2022 Posts: 9 Location: Tigard, OR
|
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Will Not Start |
|
|
Wildthings wrote: |
Do you hear a relay click when you turn the key to the run position?
Have you cleaned the fuel injection grounds?
Do you have a points distributor or one that uses a Hall sender? Which ever one you have you need the wire running to the ECU hooked up to the #1 terminal on the coil.
Your Bentley should have a trouble shooting chart. |
Is the click under the dash or in the engine bay? What is it that needs to click?
I have not cleaned the fuel injector grounds. I will find thier location via the Bentley Manual.
I have points.
Thanks. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
1980 Noganav Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2022 Posts: 9 Location: Tigard, OR
|
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Will Not Start |
|
|
MarkWard wrote: |
Not many folks left that can tune carbs. There is no magic bullet that I can offer. The AFC fuel injection is covered in chapter 24 of the factory manual. You’ll need a test light, volt ohm meter, and a fuel pressure gauge.
At a minimum. The injection needs fuel pressure. The injectors must click during cranking. So check those first. Otherwise you have to work through the troubleshooting in the manual. The AFC has a double relay that is the main power for the pump and fuel injection. They do fail. It’s mounted in the left front of the engine compartment. Some had a ground wire that shared the mounting screw. If it’s loose, the relay can be intermittent or inop. |
I will check that double relay.
Thanks. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
1980 Noganav Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2022 Posts: 9 Location: Tigard, OR
|
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Will Not Start |
|
|
pathao wrote: |
Question : FED or CAL ?
I cannot remember if 1980 had the CAL version of it (I presume yes).
CAL is an another kind of beast.
1980 Noganav wrote: |
... not just start replacing parts. ... |
I think that's the proper atitude
Fuel inject is wayyyyy easier that carbs. There is nothing under that engine cover.
I would pull the injectors (and change the seals while I there) to see if they spray. The ECU receive a signal from the coil and use that to pulse the injectors (all of them at the same time) with a + signal. All injector are grounded via the resistor pack (white porcelaine bloc on the firewall).
A bit of info/reading
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/afc_f...Manual.pdf
Have fun and show us some photos of that gem you found. |
Thanks for the link. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50260
|
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:13 pm Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Will Not Start |
|
|
The fuel injection side of the double relay should click when you turn the key to the "run" position. The fuel pump side will not click until you turn the key to the start position and the starter engages, so you will not hear the relay closing over all the other noises. With the key in the "ON" position, if you open the vane in the AFM you should be able to hear the fuel pump relay close and hear the fuel pump start running.
Not sure where the ECU grounds are on an air cooled Vanagon. On a FI Bay Window Bus they are underneath the left side intake manifold runner plugged into a ground star attached to one of the case bolts.
Last edited by Wildthings on Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
1980 Noganav Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2022 Posts: 9 Location: Tigard, OR
|
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 6:52 pm Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Will Not Start |
|
|
I am making progress with the help you all have provided.
The grounds under the intake were very rusty. There is a rusty bracket in the way of getting to the rusty bolt on the intake manifold were the grounds are attached. That bracket is mounted with a very rusty SLOTTED ?!#?? screw that just cams out when you try to remove it. Who thought that was a good idea? When I do remove the components that are in the way of this SCREW, I will replace it with a hex head bolt. I did fab me up a little something to mount the grounds for now.
I also found a white wire that was not connected to the - side of the coil.
It now fires up on the first crank, but will only keep running if I continually feather the gas pedal. It will not idle.
I need to get it to idle so I can set the timing. Any suggestions?
Thanks. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50260
|
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Will Not Start |
|
|
Look for vacuum leaks. I would add both FI cleaner and MMO to your fuel tank. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
1980 Noganav Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2022 Posts: 9 Location: Tigard, OR
|
Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Will Not Start |
|
|
Wildthings wrote: |
Look for vacuum leaks. I would add both FI cleaner and MMO to your fuel tank. |
"Wild thing. You make my heart sing....I think I love you."
I found a disconnected vacuum line and it fired right up and idled. I am now waiting for the paint to dry on my timing marks.
Thanks a bunch. _________________ 1980 Vanagon |
|
Back to top |
|
|
rustednuggs Samba Member
Joined: June 29, 2008 Posts: 507 Location: Summerdale
|
Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:21 am Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Will Not Start |
|
|
Random question...it just turns over and will run for about 20 seconds on start fluid. New injectors, good pressure from the pump and tot he injectors.
Testing on my 1980 Federal vanagon:
All of the fuel injection harness tests out good. I can supply power to each injection from the main harness plug and they all 4 pulsate.
Tested ohm reading at injector wires at harness plug. All ohmed at 9. Bentley says approx 7 ohms. 9 seems acceptable
If I plug the harness into the ecu and ohm them out I only get 2.7
Everything is pointing to a bad ecu??
I have 2 ground wires I want to locate tomorrow and verify I have good connections, even though the ground pins test out.
So I am going to get another ECU to test out, ay other ideals?
TY in advance. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50260
|
Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:35 am Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Will Not Start |
|
|
rustednuggs wrote: |
Random question...it just turns over and will run for about 20 seconds on start fluid. New injectors, good pressure from the pump and tot he injectors.
Testing on my 1980 Federal vanagon:
|
The trigger wire for the ECU needs to be hooked to the #1 (-) side of the coil. Hook it to the #15 (+) side of the coil and the injectors will not fire. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
1980 Noganav Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2022 Posts: 9 Location: Tigard, OR
|
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Will Not Start |
|
|
Well my enthusiasm was short lived.
When I time it to specs it won’t idle. The idle screw does nothing. I’ll put it back to it’s advanced timing so it will run. Then I will check for vacuum leaks. It is very difficult to start after it is warm.
The coil does not pass the ohms test so I ordered a new one.
Any other ideas? Thanks. _________________ 1980 Vanagon |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50260
|
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Will Not Start |
|
|
1980 Noganav wrote: |
Well my enthusiasm was short lived.
When I time it to specs it won’t idle. The idle screw does nothing. I’ll put it back to it’s advanced timing so it will run. Then I will check for vacuum leaks. It is very difficult to start after it is warm.
The coil does not pass the ohms test so I ordered a new one.
Any other ideas? Thanks. |
Does a Vanagon use a timing scale as per a late bus? There is also the possibility that the key that holds the fan in place on the crankshaft is either missing or sheared. If you exhaust is badly clogged that can require extra timing as well. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
GoEverywhere Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2020 Posts: 515 Location: Portland, OR
|
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:11 pm Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Will Not Start |
|
|
Wildthings wrote: |
1980 Noganav wrote: |
Well my enthusiasm was short lived.
When I time it to specs it won’t idle. The idle screw does nothing. I’ll put it back to it’s advanced timing so it will run. Then I will check for vacuum leaks. It is very difficult to start after it is warm.
The coil does not pass the ohms test so I ordered a new one.
Any other ideas? Thanks. |
Does a Vanagon use a timing scale as per a late bus? There is also the possibility that the key that holds the fan in place on the crankshaft is either missing or sheared. If you exhaust is badly clogged that can require extra timing as well. |
Yes, an AC Vanagon has the same timing scale as the late Bus. They're 99.9% the same motor. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
1980 Noganav Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2022 Posts: 9 Location: Tigard, OR
|
Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2022 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Will Not Start |
|
|
Update: The new coil fixed my timing and my idle speed. Runs and drives great now. Thanks to all that helped. _________________ 1980 Vanagon |
|
Back to top |
|
|
GoEverywhere Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2020 Posts: 515 Location: Portland, OR
|
Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2022 8:48 pm Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Will Not Start |
|
|
1980 Noganav wrote: |
Update: The new coil fixed my timing and my idle speed. Runs and drives great now. Thanks to all that helped. |
Awesome! Glad it was an easy fix! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|