Bus as Winter Vehicle?

Bob D. · Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 9:28 am Post subject: Bus as Winter Vehicle?

First, thanks to all of you who contribute your time and knowledge to make this forum and others like it such a phenomenal resource!

Second, I am a longtime car nut (VWs, BMWs, Porsches of various ages) but Bus newbie. I am about to buy a very nice '79 transporter. Unfortunately, I may have no choice but to drive it through much of the harsh Chicago Winter. I have read the info on type2.com about maximizing heat, etc., but the link to the article about rust and insulation, and some other Winter driving issues, is no longer working. So, I would love to get some feedback from those of you with some direct experience with driving a bus in Winter.

Specifically, would a bus with no rust issues likely get cancer after just a single Winter of exposure, or if kept clean would it be OK? And Ziebart still offers rustproofing, undercoating, etc., any opinions on whether this is a good idea (some say it actually might make rust more likely!?)

Also, does the bus handle OK in snow, and are snow tires required?

Lastly, assuming a stock heating system in excellent condition, is the heat passable or are extra efforts still needed (I have heard conflicting opinions on this)?

Answers to these questions, and any other Winter survival suggestions (or general newbie tips) would be greatly appreciated! Sorry for all the questions--I hope to be on the answer side in a few months. Smile

Thanks in advance for any help. Very Happy

ratwell · Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 9:49 am Post subject: Re: Bus as Winter Vehicle?

mross · Samba Member Joined: September 11, 2003 Posts: 59

Last winter I drove an 83 aircooled vanagon as my daily driver. I thought it did excellent in the snow, but i did have a set of mud and snow rated tires on it. I bet your bus would do fine in the snow with regular all season tires as long as you were using the proper type (not car tires). The stock heat was allright (it would defrost the windshield, but not much else), but the addition of a fan in the heat tube under the bus improved it by a significant amount (don't bother with the bilge blower, it's made of plastic and might melt from the heat). I used a two speed blower from Grainger. I also put pink insulation from the hardware store behind all of the interior panels except the front doors. I put plastic sheet over the insulation before reinstalling the interior panels to help prevent water becoming trapped behind them and causing rust. I also attempted to find and stop the air leaks in the vehicle. I ended up blocking the outside vent in front because the seals were long gone. Also make sure that your door and window seals don't leak air. With these modifications, it would get too hot for comfort inside with the heat and blower on (I'd estimate 90 degrees). I'd estimate that the whole deal cost around $25 without the purchase of the blower (it came with the bus but wasn't hooked up). The only thing to be wary of with the inline blower is that if you have an exhaust leak, it will suck exhaust into the cab when you are standing still. I didn't have any problems with it after I fixed my exhaust leak. As far as rust, the Vanagon wasn't significantly rustier after that winter than it was before, even on the spots that were alreay rusty before winter. As a precaution, i'd paint any rusty spots with POR-15 or something like it just so you don't have to worry about it. I'd get your bus undercoated if it needs it, but i'd stay far, far away from ziebart and the like. They usually drill holes in the interior sheetmetal and spray in some petroleum based stuff. Usually this doesn't help at all, because it can block drain holes or tubes that need to be working. Besides, they will drill holes in some very visible spots on a bus. I had a bus that somebody had taken to ziebart, and it was significantly rustier than my vanagon (and it was a 79 bus, so it wasn't much older than the vanagon), plus it had holes drilled in the body. I think with undercoating and regular washing you shouldn't have to worry about rust.

vwcampin · Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 2:05 pm Post subject:

if you want to keep this bus in good shape, I wouldn't recommend driving it in salty Chicago winters. If kept clean all the time, a winter or two probably wouldn't hurt, but if there is any current rust on the bus, I can almost guarantee it will start to grow. I have driven my bus in the winter with crappy tires and it performed great. I'm sure with a good set of tires you could go just about anywhere. However the past 2 winters I have not driven my bus in the winter, but just left it parked on the street. At the end of each winter there is a very evident increase in rust on the drivers side which faced the street. Salt is what really makes them rust. Just check out some of the busses in the classifieds from the Chicago area where salt is used. and compare them to the busses from Colorado which uses sand.

Amskeptic · Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Bus as Winter Vehicle?

Bob D. · Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 3:18 pm Post subject:

Guys, thanks for the great advice! Reading these replies brings to mind two questions.

First, does anybody have an exact part number, and, ideally, some idiot proof (idiot here) instructions for wiring and installing the kind of heat tube fan mross describes? The applicable link on the type2.com library no longer works....

Second, I am toying with the idea of a gas heater. From what I can tell, though, the BA6 heaters are long gone and it is very difficult to find used ones complete, correct? The current Espar site disclaims any knowledge of the old heaters but touts newer models. By chance does anybody have any experience with current model Espar gas heaters?

TIA, and here is my feeble attempt at giving back to the community. The wonderful gent I bought my bus from is a tire engineer. He put Firestone FT70c tires on the bus. I believe these are passenger tires, which I know are considered a bad idea on our vehicles, but I drove the bus 600 miles home with great stability, etc. I am no tire expert, but so far these tires seem great, and they are routinely available and not expensive, so I thought I would pass it along. I welcome corrective feedback....

chabanais · Samba Member Joined: July 27, 2002 Posts: 4866

The BA6 is still around, albeit used. The new ones are expensive I think. Propex makes heaters that are excellent I've read, but also expensive.

I'd work on getting your stock system in perfect shape, a booster fan, and some insulation going. Try that before you sink money into something else maybe.
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Randy in Maine · Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 4:36 pm Post subject:

Bob,

I will throw in my 2 cents here. All of the extra money that VW spent on the big nuts on the rear axles came from the money they saved by making the heaters so lame-o.

Better to do all of this in September than in January.

I would put the bus up on a lift or on jackstands and make sure everything to do with the heaters work from the heater boxes to the defroster vents work as they should. It would be an ideal time to have a good hard look at the whole exhaust system also. Pay careful attention to the heater cables - lube them up and adjust them so that they are all they are supposed to be and work easily. Make sure the ALL of the heater hoses from the engine are in good shape, well clamped and also the ones under the bus. Some people shut off the rear seat heaters and direct everything up front, but that is a personal choice.

While you are under there, get the POR-15 or (some other rust eater) and spray it on just about everything that is rusty and metal, and spray some undercoating on anything that you can get to that doesn't get hot. I would pay special attention to the wheel wells, dog legs, front beam, and the bottom of the battery boxes.

Take out the little fan that sits just above the engine, clean it all out and then clean out the motor with WD-40. Check the 16 amp in-line fuse and buy some extras so that when you are on the Adli Stevenson Expressway at 2 AM and it poops out you know how to replace it in the dark and can at least get home. Make sure it works off the right red dash lever, when it is 2/3 of the way down. (Mine only works when the alternator is charging.)

If you have any money left after all of that, a booster fan can help as can the insulation, and good sealing doors/windows/camper top. I would blow off the gas heater. Too dangerous. If you really think you need it, buy a camping propane catalytic heater.

Pull off that grill in the front, pull out the 2 little doors in there and make sure the gasket is there and closes the air off good. If not, go to Home Depot and get some weatherstripping for it. I want to say it is a self adhesive 7/16" thick, but I can't remember.

It would be nice to have the rubber seals that go around the clutch and brake pedals to reduce any wind there.

I always say that All Season Radials are the South's revenge for the North winning the Civil War, so a good pair of real snow tires with real tread can be a big help where you are. But in real life, the guy who is stuck in front of you will be the limiting factor to forward progress. Reinforced sidewall tires are hard to come by anymore, some Light Truck tires are helpful (in that most of them will hold 40 psi in the rear), but don't lose any sleep using passenger tires. They actually make tires today a lot better now that they did 30 years ago. I personally don't like studded snow tires (since they don't stop as fast on dry pavement), but again it is a personal choice.

Think of the "Bottom Blast" at the car was as the cost of doing buisness twice a week. Wash well and wash often. If your windshield washers still work, buy the Rain-X for it, and the winter wipers. I do Rian-X on all of the galss including the headlights!

In olden days (60-70's) we all drove these cars as our only transportation (I grew up in IA). We didn't have all wheel drive, 4 wheel disk brakes, air bags, or even rack and pinion steering for the most part, and we lived. At least most of us. With the rear engine and being sort of heavy, they did all right in the snow. I try not to make any course corrections very fast. If you ever drove the old 356's or old beetles with the dirty air heater boxes, the fresh air ones on this bus are a vast improvement. We always carried both inside and outside ice scrapers.

I always carry a tow chain, a pair of jumper cables, and a warm pair of LL Bean gloves. Oh yeah, a thermous of hot java can help.

Look at it this way, at least no one moves from Florida to retire in Chicago for the winter. It could be worse, you could be in Minnesota where zero is frequently a heat wave.

Stay warm and prosper!

ratwell · Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 4:45 pm Post subject:

Amskeptic · Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 6:58 pm Post subject:

farmersdahtr · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 6:33 am Post subject:

Those clutch and brake gaskets are the same ones on your spark plug wires. You remove the belly pan, unbolt the levers from the pedals, then stretch the gaskets over the pedal arm, sliding them into the proper position. While you're there, nows a good time to inspect/replace the clutch and accelerator cables and boots, and front shifter bushing. I did all this last week and it was simple. Dave

teuton · Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 8:42 am Post subject:

Amskeptic,

You mentioned "One Step rust-catalyzing primer" earlier. Is this the same as POR-15 or is there a specific brand that you use? Either way, where did you buy it?

Thanks

crukab · Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2003 5:38 am Post subject:

Some people get there Bus oil undercoated, its supposed to keep the salt away from the body.
Also I put a small fan under the nose pan of my 71 westy, right where it turns to go up the front of the bus, I think I bolted a L shaped peice of 1/8 " sheet metal to the frame ,to sit/hold the blower in place, then its just a ground & power wire to a toggel switch under the dash, lots more heat & defrost. I also made a clear plastic curtain to close off the front of the Bus, not trying to heat the back 3/4 of the the Bus makes a difference.
Tom :scrambleup:
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Tom

My Pops:
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I know you will always be with me, rest in peace with no more pain. 8/13/14.....

In the yard right now:
'51 Dodge 5 window truck
'65 Bug
'66 Singlecab
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'86 Doublecab W/T
'91 Vanagon carat/wolfsbrg.Tiico
'88 Dodge Ram pickup
'11 Jetta Wagon

Bob D. · Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2003 11:06 am Post subject:

There is some really excellent advice in these posts! Thanks especially to Colin, Randy and ratwell for the detailed info. Between this info and the advice of my mechanic, a 30-year specialist in Porsche 914s (you MUST become an expert on rust if you work on 914s in the midwest), I think I have come up with a good plan.

My bus is unusually rust free at present so I am going with primer and protective paint on the underside, followed by a heavy coating of Waxoyl. I will also use Waxoyl on door and interior panels.

FWIW, virtually everybody I talked to recommended against undercoating and Ziebart for my situation. These are felt to actually promote rust after the first year or so. YMMV, this is just my experience.

Regarding heat, I am first going to try optimizing everything within the stock heat system, including insulating the heat tubes, etc. If this is insufficient, as suggested above I may try a carefuly secured, flameless and indoor-approved catalytic heater. A friend uses one with much success in a Vanagon and IMHO these heaters can't be more dangerous than an old gasoline heater. Wink

Teuton, to answer your question one brand of rust-converting primer that is well thought of is Mar-Hyde, which at least around here is available at most FLAPS.

Hopefully the "winterizing" of my bus will be completed over the next two weeks. I'll report on any major successes or failures.
_________________
1978 7-Passenger, 37K miles
Proud Member #1, SBS (Stock Bus Society)

*Enjoy and appreciate your good health*

We used to play for silver
Now we play for life

shiningstar76 · Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:13 pm Post subject:

I had a 68 bus the three years that I lived in chicago in the late 90's. You get used to the cold just like you forget about powersteering and all the things modern cars have when you don't have them. But, my 68 had recent paint on it and was right out of california and started to rust about after the second winter up there. I would seriously consider parking it and buying a beater for the winter. One of the greatest things about up north is that you can find a subaru battle wagon with beautiful holes and dents for a few hundred bucks and they are unstoppable in that weather. I just moved to north carolina and cant believe how many unrestored vw's are still on the road down here compared to up north. Your bus will not last that long in that salt, and I would hate to see another one go!
peace [/b]

Randy in Maine · Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2003 5:51 am Post subject:

Hey Bob,

What a clean one owner low miles mint condition creampuff you have there! That green kind of grows on you doesn't it?

All of sudden I am very intrigued in this Waxoyl stuff. It is new to me (but then I don't get out much). I went to the website and had a look at their stuff.

Are you going to put it on or is your 914 guy? What kind of spray gun gizmo do you use it get it up there? Any idea on how much it will take? Cure or drying time? I know you are going to prime and paint first, but what about prep work if you don't? What color is it? Do you have to cover any bolts that you want to get to? You pulling out the heater tubes before you spray? Same stuff for the doors and the bottom?

We are going to need the full report here Bob.

Signed,

That guy who doesn't get out much, asks a lot of stupid questions, but still manages to hate rust in his spare time.

Randy in Maine · Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 11:02 am Post subject:

One more thing...

Have you (or anyone else) checked out this place?

http://vanity.qwestdex.com/barneysimportparts/Page7.html

Might be worth it....

rustybutterknife · Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 8:13 pm Post subject:

they don't call it the B.A.-6 for nothing. it will make you sweat in the winter. they are definately worth the search for. I found one off of a 81 Vanagon at my local junk yard (for spare parts) and they are on ebay motors sometimes. be on the look out and you could find a real deal.
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Bob D. · Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 8:31 pm Post subject:

Randy I am not as diligent as I should be about checking these boards, so I apologize for the delay in responding to you.

Although I am only in my early 40s, I have developed a serious form of rheumatoid arthritis, Pretty much all my joints are dramatically affected, and one of the many ramifications of this is that I am no longer able to to do work on cars anymore. Frustrating, but at least I am here to complain about it! Smile

So, my mechanic is the lucky guy who is doing all the stuff to the bus. Besides the rustproofing stuff, I am also having new shocks put on, new afterburner pipes installed on the exhaust system, and lots of other little tweaks. Since he is swamped right now and I basically talked myself into an appointment with him, I suspect it will be another couple of weeks before the bus is done and I will have better answers to your questions.

In the meantime, I can point you to these sites, which to give a little bit more information about Waxoyl and the applicators used with it. I also know that a thicker version of the stuff is used on the underside of the bus versus what is used in the door panels, etc., the idea being that the thinner stuff can creep into the smallest cracks and crevices. http://www.minimania.com/web/Item/WAXOYL/InvDetail.cfm
http://www.hammerite-automotive.com/waxoyl.htm

Also, great link above to the heater booster! I will call to get more information on this product, and if it sounds good, I will volunteer to be the official guinea pig for this system, and see if I can't add installation of it to the ever-increasing work list for my poor mechanic.

I love my bus, and is the goal of all this work is to keep both of us happy over the long cold winter. Very Happy

Will let you know of any relevant progress.
_________________
1978 7-Passenger, 37K miles
Proud Member #1, SBS (Stock Bus Society)

*Enjoy and appreciate your good health*

We used to play for silver
Now we play for life

Bob D. · Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:26 pm Post subject: Update

I am a little late in updating this thread, but, as promised, I wanted to report on my experiences with Waxoyl as a rustproofing option for buses.

Waxoyl was highly recommended to me by my mechanic and is the favorite choice of many British car nuts and Land Rover enthusiasts. Here is an excerpt from one of the Waxoyl sites:

"A thick waxy fluid, saturated with a very powerful rustkiller, Waxoyl chases out moisture to form a flexible weatherproof skin that won't crack, dry or wash off in the rain. Rust-inhibiting molecules in Waxoyl cut through films of oil, grease and dirt in seconds and cling on to metal surfaces, like iron filings to a magnet. Unlike chemical inhibitors used in ordinary rustproofers, Waxoyl stays active indefinitely. If the skin is scratched or punctured, Waxoyl creeps back and reseals itself. Waxoyl prevents multi-metal corrosion in today's cars and ends the winter-time threat of salt corrosion. Just remove heavy mud deposits, grease and oil. Wire brush off flaky rust, then spray apply. Waxoyl cuts right through light road dust, kills existing rust and even reseals cracked old underbody seal."

Every inch of the underside of my bus, except for the exhaust system, was coated with the underbody version of Waxoyl (harder, thicker and darker than "regular" Waxoyl). Here it is in one of the wheel wells. The specks up top are bits of Fall leaves:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Here is a shot of the floor pan. You can also see here the insulated Mylar ducting, per Bulley's "Heat, Noise and Rust" article. I feel that this insulation made a noteworthy difference in the temperature of the heat at final output.

Sorry for the rotten picture quality, but I think you can get an idea as to the texture and coverage of the underbody version of this stuff.

All interior panels were coated with "regular," clear Waxoyl. It is thinner, so as to run into the smallest seam, nook and cranny. I like this because it protects without being obvious. For example, when looking through the openings in my engine lid, unlike other rustproofing choices, you can't even tell the Waxoyl is there until you touch it.

Waxoyl is very tough to get right now, with many vendors back ordered. I eventually got most of mine from Rovers North and Moss Motors.

I want to give Waxoyl some more real world testing before wholeheartedly recommending it for buses, but my initial impression is quite positive. It can be applied over a variety of surface conditions, is pretty easy to apply, and the people I talked to that used it (admittedly just 3 or 4, not dozens) loved it and had no rust problems. It does have to be reapplied every few years, but I'd rather do that than worry about the harder, "permanent" underbody coatings cracking, then trapping water and promoting rust, or rustproofing paints flaking off.

Hope this helps somebody.
_________________
1978 7-Passenger, 37K miles
Proud Member #1, SBS (Stock Bus Society)

*Enjoy and appreciate your good health*

We used to play for silver
Now we play for life


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