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HastaAlaska Samba Member
Joined: November 22, 2012 Posts: 1420 Location: Off Grid
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Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2023 1:47 am Post subject: Rear Wheel Bearing - Did I miss the window to just repack? |
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Greetings from Italy!
I messed up guys!
I have a very detailed service document but I incorrectly put the rear wheel bearing schedule down as 50,000 miles (got my kms and miles mixed up) - It should be 30,000 miles the same as the front wheel bearings.
Now I have a light (getting worse) scraping noise from the RR wheel which isn't affected by the suspension, turning, or engine. I'm guessing the wheel bearing. My question is, in your experience, once the scraping starts, is it still possible to just clean and repack without removing them - or am I now looking at a replacement bearing? ) EDIT: I feel like the answer is to replace them as it is clearly it's a metal-on-metal sound, so damage would have occurred, an inspection will make certain.
I've spent most of the summer completing a lot of maintenance, including repacking the front wheel bearings 10k miles ahead of schedule, just in case. So it's frustrating to have missed this and now be looking at doing a car-park-bearing job.
Also if anyone has inventive suggestions on how to get the nut off without a pole/chain etc ? I have the socket a short breaker bar and a combined passenger weight of 290lbs (do you think jumping on the breaker bar will shift it? _________________ Around The World in a VW - Follow the Docuseries
2011 - PRESENT
Hasta Alaska Series - https://kombilife.com/hasta-alaska/
World Overland Series - https://kombilife.com/world-overland-travel-series/
Latest Adventures - https://www.youtube.com/@kombilife |
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favguy Samba Member
Joined: January 25, 2012 Posts: 224 Location: England
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Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2023 3:24 am Post subject: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing - Did I miss the window to just repack? |
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HastaAlaska wrote: |
Greetings from Italy!
I messed up guys!
I have a very detailed service document but I incorrectly put the rear wheel bearing schedule down as 50,000 miles (got my kms and miles mixed up) - It should be 30,000 miles the same as the front wheel bearings.
Now I have a light (getting worse) scraping noise from the RR wheel which isn't affected by the suspension, turning, or engine. I'm guessing the wheel bearing. My question is, in your experience, once the scraping starts, is it still possible to just clean and repack without removing them - or am I now looking at a replacement bearing? ) EDIT: I feel like the answer is to replace them as it is clearly it's a metal-on-metal sound, so damage would have occurred, an inspection will make certain.
I've spent most of the summer completing a lot of maintenance, including repacking the front wheel bearings 10k miles ahead of schedule, just in case. So it's frustrating to have missed this and now be looking at doing a car-park-bearing job.
Also if anyone has inventive suggestions on how to get the nut off without a pole/chain etc ? I have the socket a short breaker bar and a combined passenger weight of 290lbs (do you think jumping on the breaker bar will shift it? |
If there is is any sort of scraping/grating noise coming from any bearing, it's too late for maintenance and needs to be changed as the noise is generated by damage to the bearing or race surfaces. Cleaning and repacking may lessen it for a time, but it will soon be back and get worse.
Just ensure it is actually the bearing first and not something else such as brake shoes rubbing or the like. |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22503 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2023 4:47 am Post subject: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing - Did I miss the window to just repack? |
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It’s likely if you can get good moly grease into the bearing load items( rollers or balls) you can get another 10k miles out of them. Same with CVS
I don’t remember if you can get to the rear bearings without destruction, though _________________ .ssS! |
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HastaAlaska Samba Member
Joined: November 22, 2012 Posts: 1420 Location: Off Grid
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Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2023 5:24 am Post subject: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing - Did I miss the window to just repack? |
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Yeah I think they get damaged on removal, even more so given the limited tools I will be using.
I plan (hope) Ito clean and repack the good side in situ and replace the bad side. I've just checked and I have the parts needed. Just not the 3' persuasion pole for the axle nut _________________ Around The World in a VW - Follow the Docuseries
2011 - PRESENT
Hasta Alaska Series - https://kombilife.com/hasta-alaska/
World Overland Series - https://kombilife.com/world-overland-travel-series/
Latest Adventures - https://www.youtube.com/@kombilife |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22503 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2023 7:00 am Post subject: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing - Did I miss the window to just repack? |
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Hot and cold, hot and cold, hot and cold
Using only torque to break bolts free just busts stuff.
Ben, I bet the scraping is brakes and not bearings. They usually get rumbly, not scrapy _________________ .ssS! |
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mikewire Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2010 Posts: 802 Location: San Antonio, TX
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Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2023 7:22 am Post subject: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing - Did I miss the window to just repack? |
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Hey Ben, you can try but I would put money on that you snap the breaker bar at the swivel joint trying the brute force way. Having just completed a rear brake job on mine, I can say that some PB Blaster (or your thread penetrant of choice) plus heat (torch) you may have a chance with the breaker bar.
There's such a thing as a torque multiplier tool...I swear I thought I saw you use one in an old video...but maybe you could get one in Italy? Possibly one of you contacts at CB Performance could hook you up: https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/6515.htm
Otherwise it would be wise to invest or borrow an electric impact and a 24mm socket.
Maybe you can connect with another VW enthusiast for some tools and some working space. _________________ -Mike
@countdowngarage
@bigskyeuro
1972 VW Kombi 9 Passenger Deluxe w/ 2.0L F.I. VWAC swap
1965 VW Beetle Deluxe Bahama Blue |
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kreemoweet Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2008 Posts: 3884 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2023 8:44 am Post subject: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing - Did I miss the window to just repack? |
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The scraping is very unlikely to be from the bearings themselves. A loose inner ball bearing could conceivably cause scraping of the drum on the backing plate. VW removed any suggested scheduled maintenance for the rear wheel bearings for '73-up busses, likely because the change in roller bearing design made the procedure not cost-effective. I agree with the consensus that it would be unwise to replace any original VW part unless absolutely required, which would be a rarity with those bearings. There is no way to effectively clean and repack those bearings without removing them. _________________ '67 bug: seized by the authorities
'68 bug: seized by the authorities
'71 kombi: not yet seized by the authorities
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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74 Thing Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2004 Posts: 7357
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Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2023 9:38 am Post subject: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing - Did I miss the window to just repack? |
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The torque multiplier tool is the way to go if you can get your hands on one.
If you are going with a breaker bar I would suggest using at least a 3/4" one as I have snapped too many 1/2" ones to count.
Finally you don't know until you take off your brake and see. You may be able to add a needle to your grease gun and get some more grease in there to temporarily fix your problem but the best solution is plan on replacing most likely. If something loosened up then there will be wear. It is usually the outer roller bearing that is the problem and the inner ball bearing is usually good. |
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Shonandb Samba Member
Joined: January 12, 2019 Posts: 1102 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2023 10:05 am Post subject: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing - Did I miss the window to just repack? |
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A scraping sound is more likely the drum rubbing on the back plate but once you get the drum off, try to clean out the excess grease and try repacking it as best you can.
Regarding removing the axle nut, I had success with using penetrating oil, a VW Axle Wrench, and breaker bar.
I had my wife apply pressure (stand on but not bounce) on the breaker bar while I wacked the axle wrench with a hammer. The hammer hits on the wrench act like an impact gun/wrench and the constant pressure from my wife standing on the breaker bar did the trick.
No amount of just torqueing the breaker bar would make the axle nut budge but the combination, it worked smoothly.
_________________ *******************************
76 Westy with a 2.5L Subaru SOHC + Vanagon (010) Automatic Transaxle
Build & Trip Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=758760
Previous 1973 Panel Bus:
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50216
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Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2023 6:50 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing - Did I miss the window to just repack? |
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I have had good luck with removing the rear hub/brake drum and then popping the rear wheel seal and using a needle to force grease between the bearings. Once I have the bearings packed as full as I can get, I wipe excess grease from the immediate area behind where the seal goes to get an air space so I have some room for expansion as the grease gets hot.
I agree with others though, I don't think the bearings are making your noise, and FWIW I have never messed with the rear wheel bearing on any of my old VWs except to do what I mentioned above. I just don't believe repacking of these bearings is all that necessary and that my "fill the void" greasing whenever I do brake work is all that is necessary until the inner wheel seal needs replacing. |
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HastaAlaska Samba Member
Joined: November 22, 2012 Posts: 1420 Location: Off Grid
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Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 3:16 am Post subject: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing - Did I miss the window to just repack? |
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I appreciate the replies guys. I have the wheel off (which was loose) it’s not the drive shaft bolts and it’s not the lug nuts. the large axle nut is loose. The cotter pin was still in place.
I’m unsure if this means a bearing replacement or if I just need to tighten it. Can’t imagine the latter if the cotter pin was in place. Thoughts? _________________ Around The World in a VW - Follow the Docuseries
2011 - PRESENT
Hasta Alaska Series - https://kombilife.com/hasta-alaska/
World Overland Series - https://kombilife.com/world-overland-travel-series/
Latest Adventures - https://www.youtube.com/@kombilife |
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richparker Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011 Posts: 6916 Location: Durango, CO
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Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 8:13 am Post subject: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing - Did I miss the window to just repack? |
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If the caster nut was loose that could damage the bearings. This could also cause the backing plate to scrape on the drum. However, I have have good luck with the tightening it and everything was ok. Pull the cotter, loosen the nut a little bit, put some oil on the threads and tighten.
It is possible to remove the bearings and seals without damaging them, I’ve done it many times. _________________ __________
’71 Westy build
Adventure thread
’65 Deluxe Build |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50216
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Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 9:01 am Post subject: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing - Did I miss the window to just repack? |
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You should buy new parts while you are in an area that is more apt to have them. |
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74 Thing Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2004 Posts: 7357
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Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 9:07 am Post subject: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing - Did I miss the window to just repack? |
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If the nut loosened up and you ran it most likely your outer wheel bearing is bad.
Get the torque tool so it does not happen again or torque to spec somehow after you go through it.
Also check the nut-there is a flange on it that is supposed to be flat and if it loosened up then there may be a groove in it. You can sand it flat again or find another one. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50216
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Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 11:43 am Post subject: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing - Did I miss the window to just repack? |
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Not sure is this works on early Bay, but on later Bays you can use a Vanagon nut which has an extra set of castellations and then use the Vanagon torque spec. This increases the minimum acceptable torque without driving up the turn to get the cotterpin in torque any higher. |
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timvw7476 Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2013 Posts: 2172 Location: seattle
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Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing - Did I miss the window to just repack? |
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the repack 30k miles seems to apply to '68-'72s.
The later years as far as rear wheel bearings seems to be No Man's Land as far as miles per service /lube/ replace. ???
The EMPI axle nut whacker tool is the breaker bar saver. |
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HastaAlaska Samba Member
Joined: November 22, 2012 Posts: 1420 Location: Off Grid
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Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 2:21 am Post subject: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing - Did I miss the window to just repack? |
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So we decided against pulling/replacing the bearings (for now) and after 100 miles or so on some bumpy roads through Tuscany Italy, the tightening of the axle nut seems to have stopped the source of the scraping.
There is a little play in the rear wheel, minimal tbh. Strangely it seems to only happen at certain points when you rotate the wheel the play goes away, then rotates a bit more and it comes back. I jacked the other (good) side and there was also a little play, albeit less. I guess the bearings took a bit of a beating after the past 500 miles across the Alps with that axle nut loosening.
If the axle nut comes loose again soon, I would imagine it to be the bearings wear, and I will replace them. I have 2 full sets with me + seals. so should be good to go if needed
mikewire wrote: |
There's such a thing as a torque multiplier tool...I swear I thought I saw you use one in an old video...https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/6515.htm
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I hadn't seen this tool before, but it's very clever and I like it a lot - thanks for sharing.
richparker wrote: |
It is possible to remove the bearings and seals without damaging them, I’ve done it many times. |
I don't doubt you can Rich, with your experience. I have a hammer and 3/8"" extension I was planning on tapping them out with, but last time they got damaged like this. If you have any tips to share about getting them out undamaged I'd love to hear it.
It sounds like you do the 30K miles regreasing in that case. There are a couple of mentions about not doing it at all given the work involved. If I didn't have to do it, I would rather not as it's a lot of effort and I have previously needed to replace them due to the damage caused when removing, so had thought, why not just wait until they really need replacing.
Wildthings wrote: |
on later Bays you can use a Vanagon nut which has an extra set of castellations and then use the Vanagon torque spec. This increases the minimum acceptable torque without driving up the turn to get the cotterpin in torque any higher. |
great tip - We were lucky and the holes lined up perfectly at around 250ft/lbs _________________ Around The World in a VW - Follow the Docuseries
2011 - PRESENT
Hasta Alaska Series - https://kombilife.com/hasta-alaska/
World Overland Series - https://kombilife.com/world-overland-travel-series/
Latest Adventures - https://www.youtube.com/@kombilife |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50216
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Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 6:35 am Post subject: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing - Did I miss the window to just repack? |
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HastaAlaska wrote: |
Wildthings wrote: |
on later Bays you can use a Vanagon nut which has an extra set of castellations and then use the Vanagon torque spec. This increases the minimum acceptable torque without driving up the turn to get the cotterpin in torque any higher. |
great tip - We were lucky and the holes lined up perfectly at around 250ft/lbs |
This is where the Vanagon nut and specs comes into play, the minimum torque for the Vanagon is 360 ft*lbs or 50% higher than the Bay spec giving you significantly more pressure against the drum if the holes line up "perfectly". |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12674 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 9:04 am Post subject: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing - Did I miss the window to just repack? |
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Pre-71 bearings are easy to tap in and out yourself. ‘71+ rear bearings often get destroyed when removed.
50k for me on the grease. If you’re smart about it, you can jack up one wheel hub at a time and listen (second gear, idle only, wheels balanced,) to the spinning of the bearings on each side. If one side is bad, you’ll know. (Don’t jack up the whole car because you’ll hear more cv noise than bearing rumble.
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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kreemoweet Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2008 Posts: 3884 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 10:19 am Post subject: Re: Rear Wheel Bearing - Did I miss the window to just repack? |
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HastaAlaska wrote: |
If the axle nut comes loose again soon, I would imagine it to be the bearings wear |
Rear wheel bearing wear is not the cause of axle nut loosening. Loose nuts are caused by using wrong or damaged parts,
or improper installation. _________________ '67 bug: seized by the authorities
'68 bug: seized by the authorities
'71 kombi: not yet seized by the authorities
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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