Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts New!  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Steering column variations
Forum Index -> Type 3 Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Yabbadubbadoo
Samba Member


Joined: May 21, 2012
Posts: 829

Yabbadubbadoo is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 4:19 pm    Post subject: Steering column variations Reply with quote

Looking at the 1966 steering column we had here in Australia against another one I salvaged from a late model I noticed I could potentially upgrade to a collapsible column for safety but there are differences that may or may not prevent it. My reasoning is two fold. 1. General safety in a crash. 2. When we do certain performance upgrades in Australia you often have to get an engineers certificate before you can register your vehicle. The engineers often request safety upgrades be made alongside performance upgrades. A common upgrade they request is a collapsible steering column.

So I'm considering the upgrade now before I commit to a steering column just in case I go a little wild later down the track and need an engineers certificate.

The most obvious difference i noticed is the mounting bolts width but I dont believe I have a complete late model column assembly so its hard to know how much of the late model column I can use on a 66 model car.

Under the dashboard the early model column bolts up simply in a rubber damped sandwich of plates and rubber pads.



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This one here with the electrical tape holding the lever together is my original column.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


But a late model column seems to have wider mounts with a crash protection sliding mount which I assume might also break away from the dashboard in a sever crash.

Can anyone confirm what the metal attachment point looks like on a late model dashboard? Can you confirm if this style ignition key clamshell structure will mount under an early model dashboard?

(Ignore the broken clamp. Just using this pic for illustration)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If that can't be used I considered inserting the collapsible steerer in the old housing. This gives you a medium level of protection with just the perforated metal crumple tube near the steering box but no break away mounts under the dashboard.

One problem I ran into immediately when inserting the new steerer is the difference in length between the circlip groove and the metal collar welded on the shaft. The new one is about 3mm shorter.

Has anyone here done this style of conversion? How did you get around the differences.?
Is there a better year model column assembly for this upgrade? I feel going from a 66 model to post 70 model column is too much of a leap.

Old left - New right.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Sydney, Australia.
66 Type 3 Fastback


Last edited by Yabbadubbadoo on Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:52 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Yabbadubbadoo
Samba Member


Joined: May 21, 2012
Posts: 829

Yabbadubbadoo is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering column variations Reply with quote

So here are the two collapsible style columns that I've seen but I'm not sure if there were any more. Pretty sure they both came out of long nose type 3's.

I heard that a collapsible column came out as early as 1968. I would like to see an example of that because these 2 below have quite wide mounting bolt holes and would not bolt up to an early dashboard.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Sydney, Australia.
66 Type 3 Fastback
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
andybla
Samba Member


Joined: March 03, 2014
Posts: 278
Location: BE
andybla is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:48 am    Post subject: Re: Steering column variations Reply with quote

i think mdege had modified his steering column, see his topic

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=745749&start=20
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Yabbadubbadoo
Samba Member


Joined: May 21, 2012
Posts: 829

Yabbadubbadoo is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:50 am    Post subject: Re: Steering column variations Reply with quote

andybla wrote:
i think mdege had modified his steering column, see his topic

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=745749&start=20


I see he fixed the stripped thread and cleaned up the terminals but didn't see a steerer swap to a crumple tube..
However I am noticing that my column housing looks quite a bit more spartan looking than Nth American and Euro cars of a similar year.
Wondering if that was a difference in Aussie built cars only.
So far I've noticed 3 different columns for German built cars and mine doesn't look anything like them. I've been assured by a local expert that my basic looking column housing is correct for my vehicle.
_________________
Sydney, Australia.
66 Type 3 Fastback
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
mdege
Samba Member


Joined: January 16, 2018
Posts: 490
Location: Niederkruechten, Germany
mdege is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:57 am    Post subject: Re: Steering column variations Reply with quote

Correct, I fixed the threads on my steering column.

Your steering column looks similar to an early bug column, maybe they used that instead on the typ3s made downunder to cut down on the number of different parts between the models.
_________________
- Michael

1965 21F: Restoration of a former '65 firetruck
1963 Typ3 Notchback project
1988 Multivan Magnum 112i
1984 Standard: My son wanted a bug for his first car
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Bobnotch
Samba Member


Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 20463
Location: Kimball, Mi
Bobnotch is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering column variations Reply with quote

Yabbadubbadoo wrote:
Looking at the 1966 steering column we had here in Australia against another one I salvaged from a late model I noticed I could potentially upgrade to a collapsible column for safety but there are differences that may or may not prevent it. My reasoning is two fold. 1. General safety in a crash. 2. When we do certain performance upgrades in Australia you often have to get an engineers certificate before you can register your vehicle. The engineers often request safety upgrades be made alongside performance upgrades. A common upgrade they request is a collapsible steering column.

So I'm considering the upgrade now before I commit to a steering column just in case I go a little wild later down the track and need an engineers certificate.

The most obvious difference i noticed is the mounting bolts width but I dont believe I have a complete late model column assembly so its hard to know how much of the late model column I can use on a 66 model car.

Under the dashboard the early model column bolts up simply in a rubber damped sandwich of plates and rubber pads.



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This one here with the electrical tape holding the lever together is my original column.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


But a late model column seems to have wider mounts with a crash protection sliding mount which I assume might also break away from the dashboard in a sever crash.

Can anyone confirm what the metal attachment point looks like on a late model dashboard? Can you confirm if this style ignition key clamshell structure will mount under an early model dashboard?

(Ignore the broken clamp. Just using this pic for illustration)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If that can't be used I considered inserting the collapsible steerer in the old housing. This gives you a medium level of protection with just the perforated metal crumple tube near the steering box but no break away mounts under the dashboard.

One problem I ran into immediately when inserting the new steerer is the difference in length between the circlip groove and the metal collar welded on the shaft. The new one is about 3mm shorter.

Has anyone here done this style of conversion? How did you get around the differences.?
Is there a better year model column assembly for this upgrade? I feel going from a 66 model to post 70 model column is too much of a leap.

Old left - New right.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Well, I've got a late (71) set up in my 65. It's a mix of years though. What I did was split the metal support bracket that holds the "shear nuts" so I could bolt it up to the dash, due to the wider spacing of the later style. Splitting the rubber at the dash side also allowed it to bolt up and help set the column head in place around the bolt holes. I used the collapsible column shaft (a 71 unit) at the steering box, and the longer 65 tube on the inside of the body (from the hole in the front wall) rearward to the column head to make up the empty space. The reason for doing it that way was to keep air flow from the front from passing directly into the car (plugged the hole). I did have to add some flat washers between the column head and the rubber spacers to drop the column down a little more for my preference in steering position. My plan was to machine some aluminum blocks to replace the washers and rubber blocks combo, but I never got around to it.
At the time I did all of this, I didn't know if it would work, as I hadn't heard of anyone doing it before. I also don't know if that would pass your mechanics certificate or not, but I've been using it since 1999-2000 when I built the car.

I believe your early Aussie built set up is based on the type 1 stuff other than the column lock. Nick (Ninja) ended up adding an Aussie lock to a bug column for his 65 Notch, basically creating what you have, as he wanted to get away from the fragile early type 3 lock and ignition switch that the German cars came with. I went with what I did for similar reasons (ease of parts replacement, except I screwed up and used a 1 year only set up (not planned)). I'd try to find a 68-70 German unit (column head) if I were to do it again.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives."
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Yabbadubbadoo
Samba Member


Joined: May 21, 2012
Posts: 829

Yabbadubbadoo is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering column variations Reply with quote

Thanks Bobnotch. Im struggling to picture exactly what you did to accommodate the wider mount onto the narrow holes under the dash.
You said you split the bracket. Does that mean you cut it? This is one of the occasions when a picture of the assembly is worth a thousand words.

Sounds like you nailed it using your own common sense before all this collective internet jibber jabber changed the way we problem solve forever. Good work mate.
_________________
Sydney, Australia.
66 Type 3 Fastback
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Bobnotch
Samba Member


Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 20463
Location: Kimball, Mi
Bobnotch is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering column variations Reply with quote

Yabbadubbadoo wrote:
Thanks Bobnotch. Im struggling to picture exactly what you did to accommodate the wider mount onto the narrow holes under the dash.
You said you split the bracket. Does that mean you cut it? This is one of the occasions when a picture of the assembly is worth a thousand words.

Sounds like you nailed it using your own common sense before all this collective internet jibber jabber changed the way we problem solve forever. Good work mate.


Yeah, pictures would be nice, but I did it over 20 years ago, not knowing IF it would work.Yes, I split the rubber bracket (and added the flat washers to adjust the height of the column head), so they would fit the shear bracket and column head slots. At the time I was working on it, I only had so many parts to work with and most of it was late model parts (easier to get in the mid west). So I figured out how to get it all to work together (early and late).
I would have used the late column tube, but it was too short to fit my application, so I used the 65 tube instead. I also used the 71 shaft with the collapsible portion at the steering box end, with the late column head (for the locking portion). Like I said before, I don't know if it would pass a mechanics certificate or not, mainly due to it not really being a "fully collapsible" set up (the box end of it can crush, and the outer tube can move into the column head, and the column head can shear away from the dash). I don't know what the mechanics are looking for. With the exception of the flat washers (for height adjustment), it's all stock VW parts, just rearranged and mixed years. Just something to think about.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives."
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Yabbadubbadoo
Samba Member


Joined: May 21, 2012
Posts: 829

Yabbadubbadoo is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering column variations Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
Yabbadubbadoo wrote:
Thanks Bobnotch. Im struggling to picture exactly what you did to accommodate the wider mount onto the narrow holes under the dash.
You said you split the bracket. Does that mean you cut it? This is one of the occasions when a picture of the assembly is worth a thousand words.

Sounds like you nailed it using your own common sense before all this collective internet jibber jabber changed the way we problem solve forever. Good work mate.


Yeah, pictures would be nice, but I did it over 20 years ago, not knowing IF it would work.Yes, I split the rubber bracket (and added the flat washers to adjust the height of the column head), so they would fit the shear bracket and column head slots. At the time I was working on it, I only had so many parts to work with and most of it was late model parts (easier to get in the mid west). So I figured out how to get it all to work together (early and late).
I would have used the late column tube, but it was too short to fit my application, so I used the 65 tube instead. I also used the 71 shaft with the collapsible portion at the steering box end, with the late column head (for the locking portion). Like I said before, I don't know if it would pass a mechanics certificate or not, mainly due to it not really being a "fully collapsible" set up (the box end of it can crush, and the outer tube can move into the column head, and the column head can shear away from the dash). I don't know what the mechanics are looking for. With the exception of the flat washers (for height adjustment), it's all stock VW parts, just rearranged and mixed years. Just something to think about.


Thanks Bobnotch, yeah I see what you probably did now. Since those parts here in Australia cost significant money these days its a little harder to mix n match if you don't already own the parts. For example, the entire steering column im pillaging parts from cost me about $40 eight years ago. Now I can't even buy the blinker switch for a hundred.

So Today I took all my steering column parts to a local aircooled vw l shop and spoke with the owner who has maybe 40 years of vw knowledge. We looked over all the parts I had and the different variations he had in his parts inventory, his suggestion to me was to keep my outer tube, column head and ignition switchgear and just use the collapsible shaft from the newer column.
He thinks its the best setup for me which is the same conclusion I came to.
He said my basic style column is a very reliable setup that doesn't use a steering lock on the ignition switch which ads to the reliability so he wouldn't change it. The collapsible shaft should satisfy the engineer if I go down that road even if it doesn't have the shear nuts. From what I can tell, not all the colapsible columns had those shear nuts or slot for the mounting bolts.
I have a tendency to "scope creep" and need to pull myself back to get things finished. I'll probably run with the old housing plus collapsible shaft and see how that pans out.
_________________
Sydney, Australia.
66 Type 3 Fastback
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Yabbadubbadoo
Samba Member


Joined: May 21, 2012
Posts: 829

Yabbadubbadoo is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering column variations Reply with quote

mdege wrote:
Correct, I fixed the threads on my steering column.

Your steering column looks similar to an early bug column, maybe they used that instead on the typ3s made downunder to cut down on the number of different parts between the models.


I think you might be right but the outer tube and inner shaft is unique to type 3 due to length. The blinker switch im unsure about but they are pretty hard to find in NOS condition and priced accordingly however I do have a lead on one that's about 1.5hrs drive away. Its never been installed just shelf aged and genuine Hella dutch made.
_________________
Sydney, Australia.
66 Type 3 Fastback
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Bobnotch
Samba Member


Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 20463
Location: Kimball, Mi
Bobnotch is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering column variations Reply with quote

Yabbadubbadoo wrote:

I think you might be right but the outer tube and inner shaft is unique to type 3 due to length. The blinker switch im unsure about but they are pretty hard to find in NOS condition and priced accordingly however I do have a lead on one that's about 1.5hrs drive away. Its never been installed just shelf aged and genuine Hella dutch made.


I think you've got the right idea going, in that you'll want to use the early tube and column head (for your application), and the later column shaft. If your buddy thinks it'll pass for the mechanics certificate, that's the way I'd go.

As for the turn signal switch assembly, it looks like a bug unit used over here, which also uses some of it's parts in the early type 3 set up (some shared parts, like the arm and upper half). Don't know if that would make trying to find what you need easier or not though. Might be worth comparing part numbers with yours and the Wolfsburg West catalog.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives."
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Yabbadubbadoo
Samba Member


Joined: May 21, 2012
Posts: 829

Yabbadubbadoo is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering column variations Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
Yabbadubbadoo wrote:

I think you might be right but the outer tube and inner shaft is unique to type 3 due to length. The blinker switch im unsure about but they are pretty hard to find in NOS condition and priced accordingly however I do have a lead on one that's about 1.5hrs drive away. Its never been installed just shelf aged and genuine Hella dutch made.


I think you've got the right idea going, in that you'll want to use the early tube and column head (for your application), and the later column shaft. If your buddy thinks it'll pass for the mechanics certificate, that's the way I'd go.

As for the turn signal switch assembly, it looks like a bug unit used over here, which also uses some of it's parts in the early type 3 set up (some shared parts, like the arm and upper half). Don't know if that would make trying to find what you need easier or not though. Might be worth comparing part numbers with yours and the Wolfsburg West catalog.


More on this mini project.

Measuring the minimum of what I needed to get the collapsible shaft working in the early housing there was exactly 4mm difference between the circlip ring and lock/bearing stop collar.

Turned it down on the lathe.
Started at 37mm. Finished at 33mm.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


They are even now.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The perforated tube section was now bottoming on the outer tube that runs up under the dash so I nipped 8mm off the end of the tube. There was about 10mm sticking out of the firewall under the fuel tank so I figured 8mm would be ok.
This left me 5mm of gap between the outer tube and the perforated section of shaft.
Going to fit it on the car again and see if that's enough clearance. I need to see if there's any allowance for fore/aft movement in the rubber mounts under the dash.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Finally this bearing felt gritty. I popped the circlip off and put some grease on there like you would do with a bicycle headset. Careful dont lose the ball bearings. Wondering if I should have used carbon conductive grease to ensure the horn circuit has no issues? I think I might get some to be safe.
Also is this metal cup style bearing available to buy new?.
It seems a little loose like it almost needs a 1mm thicker circlip. Two circlips won't fit. And one circlip is not enough.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Sydney, Australia.
66 Type 3 Fastback
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
andybla
Samba Member


Joined: March 03, 2014
Posts: 278
Location: BE
andybla is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:48 am    Post subject: Re: Steering column variations Reply with quote

good job! Cool
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Bobnotch
Samba Member


Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 20463
Location: Kimball, Mi
Bobnotch is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering column variations Reply with quote

Yabbadubbadoo wrote:

Also is this metal cup style bearing available to buy new?.
It seems a little loose like it almost needs a 1mm thicker circlip. Two circlips won't fit. And one circlip is not enough.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


You might try WW for the bearing.
Is their enough material in between to chuck the shaft back up into the lathe and cut the groove just a hair wider (for 2 clips) if you can't find a thicker clip? Just a thought.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives."
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Yabbadubbadoo
Samba Member


Joined: May 21, 2012
Posts: 829

Yabbadubbadoo is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:57 am    Post subject: Re: Steering column variations Reply with quote

More on the steering column conversion i was working on.
Looking closer at late model collapsible column - there's no good place under the dash of my '66 to mount that mid support. I also don't want to drill holes in a freshly painted car even if I could find a place.

I came up with a telescopic arrangement that should keep the horn working without mods to wiring as its electrically conductive.
Here's what I've done so far.
I bought some 35mm erw 1.6mm tubing. I turned two 6mm by approx .4mm deep grooves.
Next I made some 38mm OD bronze bushes and split them so they'd stretch over the tube and snap into the groove. The black outer tube is the original late model housing which is already shortened to that length. If this all fails I still have my un-cut original outer tube that will work as a non telescopic unit.

Pics or it didn't happen. I'll update once I test fit in the car.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Sydney, Australia.
66 Type 3 Fastback
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Type 3 All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2020, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB