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rear main seal leak or something else? *with pic*
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vinbeetle
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:01 pm    Post subject: rear main seal leak or something else? *with pic* Reply with quote

Is my rear main seal bad?I just pulled the engine and it was a little damp in the bell housing and has a little oil leaking down behind the clutch.Its not bad but is it the rear main is or it normal for a little oil to be here?
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jlex
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the seal should be replaced.
Hope you don't have much trouble taking the gland nut off.
My seal replacement went smoothly this summer, but then I had a torquemeister for the gland nut, flywheel lock, seal remover & installer and a torque wrench. Will give you a good chance to eyeball your clutch pressure plate and disc. Make sure you have a disc alignment tool to put it back correctly. Have fun.
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Last edited by jlex on Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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jlex
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In looking at the pic again, seems like your transmission supports are pretty chewed up. I'd replace those as well as long as you're in there. Are inexpensive and will only take you 20 minutes.
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vinbeetle
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

where is a good place to get those?Any ideas?
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gt1953
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wolfburg West...transmission mounts.
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is the front main seal. Some oil leakage is expected. See your Bentley manual!!

Check your end play FIRST. Then replace front seal and shim up the end play.

Note that your rear end of input shaft looks rusty. Not a good sign. The gland nut that holds the fly wheel on has needle bearings that are supposed to the lightly greased now and then.
Looks like you need a new gland bolt and grease it up.
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Opticsguy
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you do change the seal, spend the 70-80 bucks on the torque multiplier tool! I fashioned cheater bars out of angle iron and successfully got the gland nut off and on but it was a huge pita and ended up ordering the tool from aircooled.net anyway when I started having rear brake problems(it's a combination tool that is good for the gland nut as well as the castle nut that holds the rear brake drums on. works on mechanical advantage with a rack and pinion.) I bent my 3/4 inch drive breaker bar standing on it trying to break the pass side castle nut)

also, do check end play and when you change the seal lubricate the crap out of the new one. I used engine assembly lube. the first time I changed it I lightly greased a standard seal and it started leaking in short order. the second time I used the two piece seal sold by AC.net and greased the crap out of them and have no leaks now.

good luck
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Cadaver
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

x2 all ... the rust is parked for ever, the gland bearing is now toast, i bet.
"look"
first remove the flywheel then look
leak points are: (not guessing)
1: sure the seal ( all seals are greased, its rule, for first start )"Timken.com"
2: cracked case, looking rear the place is at 9pm from the crank center line.
3: cam plug leaking
4: gallery plugs leaking due to oil pump over pressure (30mm pump?)
5: case seams leaks due to builder pry marks. or just loose bolts.?

one good refr. is Tom Wilsons book, how to rebuild vw aircooled engine.
page 76 , "number 3 cyl, vertical cracks...
he shows more crack points there too... hint.

the seal is #1 but , as you know they leak where they want.
not as statistics dicate. Crying or Very sad

some guys fix the seal, run the engine on the floor
the after 10min stop and pull the fly to see if the cam or case or a crack is leaking
or add the oil dye and look with UV flash light to see what is leaking.

but the motor comes out and in in 1hr. so that makes it easy, Rolling Eyes
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johnnypan
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:40 am    Post subject: Re: rear main seal leak or something else? *with pic* Reply with quote

vinbeetle wrote:
Is my rear main seal bad?I just pulled the engine and it was a little damp in the bell housing and has a little oil leaking down behind the clutch.Its not bad but is it the rear main is or it normal for a little oil to be here?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Seepage can be expected..if its not spotting leave it alone.. a single lip seal on a shaft with endplay is going to seep.
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vinbeetle
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:10 pm    Post subject: Re: rear main seal leak or something else? *with pic* Reply with quote

johnnypan wrote:
vinbeetle wrote:
Is my rear main seal bad?I just pulled the engine and it was a little damp in the bell housing and has a little oil leaking down behind the clutch.Its not bad but is it the rear main is or it normal for a little oil to be here?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Seepage can be expected..if its not spotting leave it alone.. a single lip seal on a shaft with endplay is going to seep.


By spotting??What do you mean? Its not dripping from the engine/trans. joint.I just dropped the engine and was cleaning it up a bit and noticed it was wet and the housing was a little wet. Should I go ahead and replace it or leave it be for now?
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vinbeetle
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

will it seep when the engine is not running?
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jlex
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Should seep more if the engine's running, of course.
If I had the car's engine out and was staring at any kind of oil in that area I'd pull that clutch & pop in a new seal then you won't have to worry about it letting go in a year or two. The tools you need aren't that expensive (except for the torquemeister). I'd buy one as you'll need it for your rear brake work at some point anyway.
Sometimes those seals let loose when it's really inconvenient so deal with it now while the job's half done (engine out) already.
BTW, how's the endplay? A new seal w/ too much endplay is just a band-aid fix.
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vinbeetle
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im still looking in my books to find out how to check for end play.Let me also add this tho. The strange thing is, that when I pulled the engine the other day, the bell housing was damp, but I dint see ANY wet oil at all anywhere behind the flywheel or on the engine.I drained the oil and put it on the stand and moved and tilted it around and what not and really washed the piss out of it (I plugged all the wholes and taped everything up, including the clutch and flywheel and that entire area) .Then I put it on my work box to dry.I moved it the next day and there was wet oil right below the flywheel on my jobox????I thought what the hell!! The engine has no oil and wasnt leaking, now Its clean and its leaking??? Im really confused.....
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most any VW AC engine will leak or at least seep a little oil from the front seal. When the engine is shut down the oil passages are full of oil. Seal only works near 100% with engine running and uses the rotation of the crankshaft/flywheel to pump the oil back into the engine with little ridges in the inner side of the seal. Take a look and you will see these ridges.
With engine off the pumping action of the seal is gone and oil draining back to the sump passes this seal and can/will drip by it. Biggest cause of this is the return drain at the front seal/bearing is above the lowest inner lip of the seal so some oil gets trapped and has lots of time to leak out.

VW of Brazil later fixed most of this problem by adding another drain passage at the VERY BOTTOM of the bore the front seal is pressed into. This means little to no oil gets to sit against the seal with engine off and much less oil drip.

The blow image shows the Brazil drain passage on right of image between the case stud holes. Normal German drain hole near center lower. Between these two is a 1/8" drilled hole we have done on several earlier engines to help with this problem. Best to have a spare engine case to see where and what angle to add this hole through and miss the engine case stud holes.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So if the oil drip you have is about a silver dollar or smaller size it is OK. Bigger than that and it probably is time to look at the end play and a new seal.
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vinbeetle
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK Great thanks for the advice.Its not that bad.The engine was just rebuilt 2 months ago...probably doesnt mean much but it was....thanks for the response, that explains alot.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problem!

Forgot to mention that when you do replace the front main seal in the future, make sure the bore the seal is pressed into is smooth. Went through three seals till figuring out the bore was rough with a little corrosion. Took 400 grit wet/dry sand paper to it, fixed the problem. Also that a little oil is needed in that bore to let a seal slide in and not tear when pressing in...
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric&Barb wrote:
No problem!

Forgot to mention that when you do replace the front main seal in the future, make sure the bore the seal is pressed into is smooth. Went through three seals till figuring out the bore was rough with a little corrosion. Took 400 grit wet/dry sand paper to it, fixed the problem. Also that a little oil is needed in that bore to let a seal slide in and not tear when pressing in...


use very fine scotchbrite instead of 400 grit paper...no grit with scotchbrite..
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jlex
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the engine was just rebuilt, I'd expect they just installed a new seal...right? So why did you pull the engine in the first place? How come they left that rusty old throwout bearing in it.. unless they had the engine w/o the rest of the car...
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vinbeetle
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I pulled the engine to replace all the missing and worn tin, and the PO just confirmed that the build was done 4 months ago.The seal was replaced then, and that must just be the lighting on my camera because I double/triple checked the input shaft and its not rusty at all, it just looks that way in the pic I guess.
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jlex
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see. Would be pretty rare for a seal to go bad that quickly if it was installed properly. Sometimes the installer doesn't grease it up after the install and the shaft rips it up from too much friction... If it's new, you should be okay though.
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