Boston Syncro project- the Corter Van

insyncro · Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:59 pm Post subject:

I was talking to Jim this morning at Bostig.
I am going to go out of my way to start spending some time out on "the Rock" this coming summer.
My Syncros need a tan Very Happy

I will be building a Bostig for myself soon...the crate motor has been here for way too long.

What awesome pictures Exclamation

I am so glad Pops was ear to ear Wink

Man, you barely could drive a standard when we met Eric...and now navigating an AWD beast in the sand...the old man has a lot to be proud of.

Enjoy the holiday weekend.

Fish on.

corter · Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 2:43 pm Post subject:

Hell yea dude, come hang out!

It's really fun actually, I've been doing some more technical driving on sand trails lately and I think it's really good practice- I can finally drive stick proficiently, and the sand is pretty forgiving... I'm really loving it. Getting myself a bit stuck, getting myself out, it's fun! Never thought I'd like the driving part, always thought i'd be more focused on the destination- but I guess it is the journey that really matters

corter · Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:45 pm Post subject:

Small update today, got the rear part of the cabinet painted and put in the van for mock up. I built a box and put our logo on it, and there will be a hinged section of counter top for the rear storage trunk area. That's about all for today!

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

dhaavers · Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:18 pm Post subject:

^^^ Likin' this...LOTS!

Cool

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86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
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corter · Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:26 pm Post subject:

Went to rotate the tires for the second time today and got a nasty surprise on the fronts. Looks like the alignment was waaaaaay off, enough to do this in about 5k miles to the front tires. Time for a new pair and a proper alignment, the rears (which were only on the front for the first 3k) will probably need replacing too but I'll wait until spring for that. Nothing like going through a set of tires in 8k miles Rolling Eyes

insyncro · Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:53 pm Post subject:

What changed between the first rotation and second?
You did drive to Canada and back, so more highway, but that isn't right.

It was laser aligned when it left here and had more adjustment left thanks to Burley's arms.

Is it just that side or both fronts?

What pressure are you running on pavement and are you 100% sure that you are inflating to the proper pressure after coming from the sand?

I recommend a second alignment at or before 5000k miles with new springs and shocks.

You are also continually adding weight to the van from when it left here, so the alignment must be updated to match the added weight.

corter · Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:30 pm Post subject:

insyncro · Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:15 pm Post subject:

We talked in depth about alignments and getting them done as weight like a high top, workbench, tools, spare tire hanging off the back of the van....were to be added and my baseline alignment would need to be adjusted.
We also talked about what the brand new springs should exhibit within 5k miles...all in reference to you needing to further dial in the suspension and keep it aligned for tire life.

I am not trying to prove you wrong, but please rethink all of our conversations and my advise for this vehicle once it left my shop.

Consistent nutting and bolting of the dual locker driveline, transmission and front diff breakin fluids being swapped and alignment were huge topics discussed at length.

There is a trend happening in the Vanagon community revolving around the weight of these vehicles and wear items.
Plenty of transmissions are experiencing issues with use...of really heavy vans.
Alignment of the steering is very crucial to a healthy driveline.
It is up to the driver of the vehicle to be inspecting the treads as much as checking tire pressures
I would recommend that every time you fill the vehicle with gas, walk around, inspect the tread and check your pressures.
New cars have pressure monitoring on the dash as it is that crucial.

Both fronts show the same wear pattern.
So what has changed in the rear?...as it also affects the front.
Nothing was suspended off the back of the vehicle when I aligned it.
Your spare alone must weigh 40-50lbs itself.
I know these things are here to stay, I am just pointing out that they were not present at the first alignment.
With the miles on the van, the springs have settled.
Is the rear sagging at all?

This goes far beyond a set of front tires and I want the best for you and the van.

This van sees above average driveline use as it is driven in the sand and is equipped with lockers.
Due to increased tire size, yes you will see very quick deterioration of treads, especially with extremely squared off tires like the All Terrain, as the alignment does not suit the vehicle, at this point in time.

The shop that has the Hunter machine that aligned this van sees my daily drivers at a minimum once a year.
I make marks and use the same techniques that Christopher has shown in his detailed thread about DIY alignment, in between the Hunter visits or if ANY changes are made.
I do manually check the alignment when I rotate tires, but since I drive all year, I am swapping from summer to snow tires and aligning each time for the specific set I put on the van.

Stock 14" Syncros with stock size rims and tires will hold an alignment, in reference to one set of tires, the longest.
As we change the rim diameter and tires size, in the larger direction, alignments will not hold throughout the duration of larger products and will need adjustments.

Anyone looking to maximize the tire tread on a lifted and larger diameter wheeled Syncro should expect to align twice with offroad specific style tires.

These are my opinions.
I have lots of time into this van and I only wish for smooth sailing.
A lot of regular and routine maintenance will need to happen.

If there is any way I can help, let me know.

61Scout · Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:19 am Post subject:

From the picture above, I see outside tire edge cupping. In my experience this is caused by a few things. Going down the list we'd have bad tire balance, worn shocks, or it's an alignment problem caused by improper camber or toe. Considering all the variables here, I think it's safe to rule out any component issues as the van has been refreshed considerably. Unfortunately that points to an improper alignment, imo. If you only had one side wearing like that I'd suggest it's a camber issue, since both sides are wearing that same way it would suggest to me that toe is off... specifically too much "toe in" with the alignment.

It is a good idea to get the alignment done with the gear you are carrying all the time, but some weight adjustment is certainly accounted for with the suspension travel. That is to say VW understood that you're going to have a varying amount of people and gear from time to time.

FWIW, with my own projects I normally like to do a second alignment after a few hundred miles. This allows all the new components to settle in place. There's usually very little difference if any, but a second alignment is good insurance to prevent exactly what happened above.

I know this is the Samba and people get defensive... please, I mean no harm or disrespect. Not trying to knock on whoever did the alignment. But stuff happens, techs put in the wrong specs, have a loose head on the rim, forgot to tighten something down, etc. The solution here is pretty plain, new tires and new alignment.

-Kevin
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1985 Tin Top, Subie 2.2 + 5MT
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ScottShelley · Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:42 am Post subject:

Here is an interesting article on Syncro alignment.

I'm sure Mr Friedman used these specs since he is so tight with Mr. Drew

http://www.vanagonauts.com/44.3a-Syncro-Alignment95.htm

insyncro · Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:41 am Post subject:

corter · Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:26 am Post subject:

insyncro · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:01 am Post subject:

I am very defensive since many around these forums seem to point the finger at whomever has done the work.
With 88,000+ views, you are damn right I will be making comments and trying my best to guide those tuning in.

Eric, we are cool.
I want you to enjoy your van, it is just going to need constant upkeep or big bills will become common place.
For you, I am a call, text or email away.
Reach out Bro, I'm here to help you, any way possible.

As with any issue that concerns a van that a professional has worked on...I highly recommend contacting that professional before posting to the Samba.
Everyone knows that I don't hold back with my opinions and comments, but most professionals have left this environment due to slander, most not truly grasping rebuilding procedures and they don't have the time to further educate consumers...since many don't listen anyway.

The line forming for me to consult, work on, build or sell a completed restoration too has grown with this thread to a point that I am only taking on roughly 1 of 50 inquires.
My days are numbered as well.
It is becoming increasingly difficult for me to come up with the parts needed.
And let's not forget, I branded these vans $yncros.
Not because they make me money, but because they are draining those who have not followed professional's advice.

Christopher Schimke · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:21 am Post subject:

One thing to remember with these lifted vans (2wd or Syncro) is that they go into positive camber very quickly with even a small amount of added weight.

The issue with the lifted vans is that the angle between the two pivot points of the upper control arm (upper control arm bushings and upper ball joints) is relatively steep. For example, when those two pivot points are parallel to the ground, the camber curve (camber curve is not the same as the camber specs. Camber curve is the motion that the wheel exhibits as it moves through the suspension travel) is at dead zero. As the wheel travels up into the wheel well from that zero point, the camber curve will go negative, and when the wheel travels downward from that zero point, the camber curve will go positive.

However, when you lift the van, the wheel drops away from the body and the camber curve (and camber specs) goes negative. During the alignment process (preferably weighted as close to the typical driving weight as possible), that negative camber spec is corrected so that there is close to zero camber when the van is at a standstill. This places the wheel at zero(ish) camber, but the the wheel is still in the negative curve.

But now the trouble starts. Because the camber was set to zero with upper control arm pointing downward, this positions the two pivot points closer together. As the suspension compresses, those two pivot points travel further away from each other which induces positive camber. The steeper the initial angle between the two pivot points at standstill (which translates to the highest lifts creating the steepest angles), the more drastic the camber change to positive.

So you can see that even adding modest amounts of weight to a lifted van can/will induce some pretty severe changes to the front suspension geometry.

That is a very simplified explanation of what is happening though. Throughout these suspension movements, not only does the camber change, but so does the caster and toe. Getting the alignment just right on a lifted van can be tricky. And the higher the lift, the trickier it gets.
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Steve M. · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:45 am Post subject:

insyncro · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:48 am Post subject:

Thank you Christopher for the details, much appreciated.

vanagonjr · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:32 pm Post subject:

corter

Been making the most of the weather and emptiness of the island this month. No real work to speak of, just enjoying the van!

insyncro

Love posts like that Exclamation

I have a new thread going now, dealing with seam prep when rust is present...along with how to treat parts before coating them.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=642311

I will gladly send you some of the product covered in that thread to bathe your seams before working and resealing.

Let me know.
I would be curious to know if the salt air or presence of salt will hamper the conversion process.

I will investigate how to neutralize the salt before attempting to convert the rust.

Gorgeous pics Exclamation

Keep enjoying our mild weather.

corter

On Tuesday night I was driving through an intersection when I got t-boned by a driver running a red light around 40mph. Nothing I could have done to stop it. The van was hit right on the passenger front wheel and pillar, pushing me into a curb and flipping the van.

If there is a silver lining, I got to crawl out of the front window Fast & Fusious style and was not hurt- not even a scratch. Also since the van was turned on it's side, I got to check that my very nice and expensive motor and transaxles look to be in fine shape.

It is absolutely amazing how safe I was in the roll over, and how little damage the van sustained all things considered. Half the windows on the side that hit the ground didn't even break!

I'm ok, but not looking forward to the long process of insurance and rebuilding a van that wasn't even done yet. So the thread continues....

The overall scene

Once they flipped the van back over, not too bad

The other car

Only pic I got of where I was hit. pass front wheel well and b pillar


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Boston Syncro project- the Corter Van
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