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Syncro Jael
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Joined: December 19, 2013
Posts: 2204
Location: Utah
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 Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:11 am Post subject: |
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Here is a photo of one of my favorite Syncro's. (Syncro Bo)
As you can see. He has this issue also. 
I am really thinking all the gear attached to the rear might also aggravate this issue.
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
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Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:06 am Post subject: |
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The inner and outer panels are really along for the ride. That is the nature of unibody. They contribute some strength by "boxing", but they can only absorb so much distortion. If you really wanted to solve this permanently. You'd build a tube chassis and attach the body to it. A roll cage would triangulate the tube chassis to eliminate most flexing. At this point, you'd have more of a race vehicle than a family multi use vehicle.
Reinforcing needs to be done at the points where the load is introduced into the chassis. Even with reinforcement, something has to give. Usually the weakest link. While the syncro 16 inner panel reinforcements probably add some stiffness, they are not going to solve and may actually force the load to a weaker spot like where it is cracking.
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SyncroGhia
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Joined: August 21, 2009
Posts: 2458
Location: Highnam, UK
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| Syncro Jael wrote: |
Here is a photo of one of my favorite Syncro's. (Syncro Bo)
As you can see. He has this issue also.
I am really thinking all the gear attached to the rear might also aggravate this issue.
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This is probably the worst example of the crease and it's weird, now that we know what's happening... I can almost see the back end of the van sitting lower from the crease backward.
Not nice.
When you think about all of the stuff that we add to the back of our Syncros, engine conversions (where the engine weighs double the amount of the original) adding more stress to this area.
I don't think the family would appreciate my adding a roll cage to the inside of Limey to help secure the bodyshell...
MG
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Christopher Schimke
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Joined: August 03, 2005
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Location: PNW
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| SyncroGhia wrote: |
This is probably the worst example of the crease and it's weird, now that we know what's happening... I can almost see the back end of the van sitting lower from the crease backward.
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Yep, down and forward! Look at how low the rear arc of fender opening is compared to the front arc of the rear opening. I'll bet that if you could take a before and after measurement of the distance between the mudflap and tire, the "after" measurement would be quite a bit less.
I know it has been mentioned before, but I am convinced that all these stiff springs that people are running these days have a huge effect on this issue. The more compliant the spring, the more the wheel(s) can travel upward without putting full pressure on the spring perch. Obviously the bump stop has the final word, but some of the springs being run these days are so incredibly stiff. Softer springs with high quality dampers is the key!
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nmerrill
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Joined: January 07, 2014
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Location: Vermont
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:33 am Post subject: |
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I don't know. A quick and dirty experiment with "paint"
Drawing a line to follow the "seam" along the bottom of the van indicates a *rise* in that line at the rear.
A similar line drawn to follow the sliding door follows that line perfectly.
Last edited by nmerrill on Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
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Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
| SyncroGhia wrote: |
This is probably the worst example of the crease and it's weird, now that we know what's happening... I can almost see the back end of the van sitting lower from the crease backward.
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Yep, down and forward! Look at how low the rear arc of fender opening is compared to the front arc of the rear opening. I'll bet that if you could take a before and after measurement of the distance between the mudflap and tire, the "after" measurement would be quite a bit less.
I know it has been mentioned before, but I am convinced that all these stiff springs that people are running these days have a huge effect on this issue. The more compliant the spring, the more the wheel(s) can travel upward without putting full pressure on the spring perch. Obviously the bump stop has the final word, but some of the springs being run these days are so incredibly stiff. Softer springs with high quality dampers is the key! |
Christopher is right. Something has to give. Springs that are properly sized for the corner weight and a properly valved shock to control the spring is what you need. There is also a consideration front to rear as far as spring oscillation. When the front tires hit a bump, there is a delay to when the rear hits the same bump. Ideally the front and rear oscillations would match. Suspension control gets pretty advance pretty quickly. It is too bad my geometry teacher said, "you will never use this stuff in life". Ha, I could use it everyday in mine.
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hans j
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| rsxsr wrote: |
Christopher is right. Something has to give. Springs that are properly sized for the corner weight and a properly valved shock to control the spring is what you need. There is also a consideration front to rear as far as spring oscillation. When the front tires hit a bump, there is a delay to when the rear hits the same bump. Ideally the front and rear oscillations would match. Suspension control gets pretty advance pretty quickly. It is too bad my geometry teacher said, "you will never use this stuff in life". Ha, I could use it everyday in mine. |
Yay! Spring frequency! FYI the stock van springs are setup for a pretty high rear rate over the fronts. I've done the math and tried to keep it as low as I could with my springs. I might even go with lower rates in the rear than what I already have.
My van has a very slight crease on the right side. Don't know if it is due to rusty panels or if I did it or if it was there before I got it. I ride my van pretty good though, so it could have been me...
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SyncroGhia
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Joined: August 21, 2009
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Location: Highnam, UK
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:48 am Post subject: |
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I run Andreas springs on Limey and MAD rear springs/standard 2WD front springs on Skogen.
I am intending on fitting Andreas springs to Skogen as well as it weighs 2250kg before I load anything up.
I need stronger springs but Skogen will probably suffer the same issues as the rest here.
Actually... I can think that I've seen this issue on T3 Syncro pickups?
Anyone got any photos of this on a Doka/Sinka Syncro?
MG
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Syncro Jael
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Joined: December 19, 2013
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Location: Utah
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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My van is showing the same symptoms. Not bad yet, but it is more pronounced than a year ago. I guess it just shows that it gets used?
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MarkWard
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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Jael, how would you describe your use over the last year? Are we talking corduroy on dirt roads or jumping off of Boulders? I have the skills to reinforce all of the rear of my syncro, but expect to only hit some dirt roads, sand roads, and some mud. So while I find this very interesting, have enough to do without reinforcing the rear end. thank you.
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smurfpike
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Location: Utah
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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I am enjoying watching and reading this thread and learning more about my Syncro. I do wonder though that if you are getting creases for weight on the rear and bottoming out wouldn't you see creases elsewhere? For example below the rear intakes or elsewhere on the rear quarter panel?
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MarkWard
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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I am sure there's more deformations you don't see, especially in the top picture on this page. The side panels show it so well, because they are flat and painted. Even the slightest deformation will showup, just like a door ding does. The inner unibody is covered in sealer, undercoating and dirt, so deformation is harder to see. This damage once done would be very difficult to repair properly.
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rmcd
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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Yes I'm a dork with too much time during my lunch break.
I'm having a hard time understanding how the plating might work to reinforce my syncro from body creases.
This is my attempt at a free body diagram to simplify the forces in two dimensions. Yes, I know the geometry is infinitely more complicated than this. Maybe this diagram will help someone smarter than I develop a solution or explain how the existing Syncro 16" plating (aka lipstick on a pig) or the newly suggested triangular body plating might help reinforce the rotational forces acting across the Hinge from Hell.
The more I look at this the more I think that the Syncro 16" plating may actually help firm up the subframe area into a huge rigid block (motor, bumper weight) that enables more rotating force across the Hinge from Hell.
Thoughts?
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Syncro Jael
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Location: Utah
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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I am trying to learn what is the major cause of this crease in the body panel so try to not have this become extreme. Much of the paved road driving is to get to destinations. I do spend a lot of time on dirt, washboard, rocky, roads and double track trails. A few times I ended up going on pretty rough ledge rock roads. Up in the High Uinta's and some canyons around Utah are pretty much boulder fields. I really try not to abuse this vehicle, but we enjoy using it and discovering new places.
A few of the places we visited in Southern Colorado were probably the roughest. Imogene pass had the most rock and ledge drop offs we have done. "Jael" won't be seeing Imogene Pass again. 
I too hate to think of the side panels creasing on my van.
Here are a few places we have gone lately.
Squaw Peak road, Utah
Imogene Pass, Colorado
Black Bear Pass, Colorado (Just the switch backs)
Southern Utah
Northern Utah
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SCM
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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Gorgeous pictures to be sure but I wouldn't think of those roads as being something that would cause a whole lot of stress on a vehicle in terms of impacts. I wonder if the crease has as much or even more to do with all the weight that's hung off the back. How pounds of stuff do you think you have back there, including that tube bumper?
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rmcd
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| SCM wrote: |
| Gorgeous pictures to be sure but I wouldn't think of those roads as being something that would cause a whole lot of stress on a vehicle in terms of impacts. I wonder if the crease has as much or even more to do with all the weight that's hung off the back. How pounds of stuff do you think you have back there, including that tube bumper? |
That is where I'm going.
I certainly am re-thinking my plan of hanging a motorcycle off the back!!
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SyncroGhia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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I think that unfortunately, we are finding the weak points on old vehicles.
VW said that they would keep parts for the T3 until they were 16 year old and now the youngest of the original production are 23 years old and the oldest (of the T3 Syncro's) are 30 years old. Almost twice the age that VW were expecting them to last.
You could argue that we're still driving the older T2 and T1 around and that the oldest T1s are 60 odd years old... but here's the thing, people haven't been bouncing T2s and T1s off rocks, boulders, off-roading and adding half of the weight of the vehicle on top and then off-road it even more aggressively.
I love this type of topic as it's learning as we go along and it helps everybody. Everyone is working toward the same goal without anyone holding back on information.
Maybe Derek Drew has something to add here? Derek?
MG
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Syncro Jael
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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I too am questioning hanging gear off the back end. Between the Rotopax, big tube bumper, Tire/Wheel, and the RMW swing away carriers it is probably close to 150 lbs easily. In the summer I usually hang the winch cradle in the rear receiver. That's another 75 lbs. 
Looking at Syncro Bo, he has a lot hanging off the rear too.
How about the 2wds? Anyone with carrier's on the back that are seeing this creasing? 
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hans j
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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My total bumper weight with two tires is probably 140 pounds or so (each wheel is 55 pounds and the bumper is pretty light actually). Bumper bracket is utilizing the last SA mounting hole too.
The weight of the rear of my van fully loaded is about 1350 pounds at each rear wheel. ALH TDI conversion and "heavy case" aluminum transmission.
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