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Heavy 2WD Westy, choppin up front tires..
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dubbified
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:33 am    Post subject: Heavy 2WD Westy, choppin up front tires.. Reply with quote

Hey,

I need to seek some suggestions on keeping the clearance on our 90 MV.

I've got some carnage going on..

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I actually bent the fender lip back in by hand, and had the front fenders rolled and pounded out a tad which helped

Driver side..

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I am so bummed about this.

My present hardware setup exists of 225/65/16 on VC Carrots, with 1 yr old (under 10K miles) Gowesty 1.5+ springs previously with good bilstein HDs (ran that for some time, more of a problem with the Bils)

The issue with cutting was lightly seen with no fiberglass top (open roof), 0 interior/doorcards, rear cargo interior all removed to the bone. So, while I was unloaded the van was slightly cutting the tire.. as time progressed with more weight/mods.. began more serious cutting of the tires..

In seeing some of the cutting some months ago, I tried a stopgap measure others had tried, to replace the struts/shocks, gave the Konis a try, they do firm up the ride quite a bit more than the Bils, not anywhere near as much bounce as the Bils.

At the same time I also installed Addco front/rear sways, and went with Burley front/rear arm urethanes, then the Powerflex UCA, and powersteering, and sway endlink urethanes in addition to try and resolve this.. The driveability was really firmed up, no body roll when passing. Cornering is awesome.

Today, while there is next to no body roll, it seems the springs are culprit, the front tires are cutting when mild cornering (under 5mph) into a dip/driveway where the suspension sees compression. This was my latest weekend camping trip, yesterday coming into a slightly uneven driveway and then pulling into a harbor freight parking lot.

Last week I weighed the van at the dump... per that scale, The van is at 5900 lbs. I'd like to get corner weighted and will be trying to get a handle on that this week.


I still have a deep cycle 100+lbs, and waterbag 100+ lbs, and 4 nato cans 100+ lbs, and another 250lbs or so of gear to load on, so, i can easily see pushing 6500+..

I'd welcome ideas on what others are doing to keep their vans up (who may have similar setup with 16's) while and not replace TOO much, and not break the bank. Not lookin to go with the Foxs

I also had been in contact with Jad from GW over them, hope to see if they can work with me.

Thanks for any suggestions!

Al
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purplepeopleeater
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the exact same issue, and if i'm fully loaded make a sudden turn i've popped out my fenders just like that, I think next spring im going to use a fender roller and move them out a little.

If I could get ahold of some factory gaurds off a syncro I would chop some metal off.
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j_dirge
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This problem is not unknown.

And it can occur on smaller tires as well. Its a fine balance between offset and and tire size... and of course how and where you drive.
Me? 225/75r16 on effective ET29.

Something some people don't quite grasp is that a spring lift is only a "lift" at rest. (I know I didn't consider it until I heard that horrid noise) The van will still move thru the enitre suspension travel as allowed.
And in 20/20 hind-sight I realize one individual did alert me.. but it slid off my plate.

Some of us have added bump stop to the shock boot/bump stop up front to minimize the crunch. How much and if it is enough will depend on the individual set up. I added about 1/2" and so far, thru one summer, I have not experienced the crunch again.

(My tires cut in, down about 3/8" to 1/2" on deep compression.)

I will eventually have my fenders rolled and pushed out on the forward edge of upper edge. Just have not found a shop nearby, yet... or prioritized it.
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danfromsyr wrote:
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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PDXWesty
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go slower up driveways. Happens to me too.
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presslab
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Springs are just a band-aid for rubbing, you should fix the offset / tire size or increase the bump stop. Although a spring band-aid like the 5660 might be the cheapest solution, as the bump stop mod might not get you all they way there.

I added a rubber bushing about 3/4" in height to my shock shaft to keep from rubbing my 215/75-15. They didn't rub on the lip, they rubbed inside the fender above the tire.

Do you have aftermarket front brakes? My DIY G60 push my wheels out 8mm. Almost seems to me like the Carrots have the wrong offset. How much clearance is there between the UCA and the tire? What is your axle to fender lip dimension?
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Last edited by presslab on Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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j_dirge
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PDXWesty wrote:
Go slower up driveways.

With all due respect.. mine cut when I was creeping down some torn up dirt road... wheels turned slightly. Could do nothing to stop or reduce the damage as pressing the brakes to come to complete stop made it worse.
I have not hit in driveways... yet.

If you've hit once.. odds are it will happen again. Modifying the fenders and bumps stops are the only real fix.. or going back to smaller tires and smaller ET.
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-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"

"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5

danfromsyr wrote:
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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chazz79
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That weight seems high. My 91 carat weighed in at 3600 lbs during a recent recycling run. The camper stuff doesn't add that much weight does it?
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1621
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Weight is a factor not to overlook. The one time I crunched my passenger side tire I was overloaded with several hundred pounds of lumber on board. You say you're getting close to 6500 lbs, or over 1000 over GVWR. Sounds like it's time to look for weight savings.
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Steelhead
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since I went to Moog 5660s/koni combo my 215/65/16s haven't come near the fender lip (I scrubbed constantly with carat springs and 215/60/16s). And I've tried hard to flex them into scrubbing... with 1000 lbs of weight in the van no less. Not saying it can't happen, but with my tire size the 5660s provide plenty of room.

what stiffness setting are you using on the Konis?
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furrylittleotter
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

Last edited by furrylittleotter on Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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IdahoDoug
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, if that weight is accurate then you are driving every day over your vehicle's designed max. So you can drive it around with wide cool looking oversize tires and the wrong offset, or you can drive it around at max gvw. Pick one.

DougM
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buildyourown
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Springs will add height (you are already there) Shocks will firm up a high speed hit, but that's not the issue. You want to be able to use the travel. Otherwise put some solid blocks of wood in there. No rubbing ever.

225 is too wide w/o mods IMO. Either settle with narrower tires or cut some metal. The whole point of having a 2wd van built for offroad use is to actually use the suspension.
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timbo
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm running 225/75/16's Goodyear Wranglers.16x8 5 Spoke Momo wheels. MOOG 5662 springs, 1" spring spacer, Rancho shocks (longer than stock travel) trimmed wheel arches, fully kitted T3 front end bushings, Burley's lifted UCA's.
Previous to the 5662 springs (85 Westy stock springs), with 4 kayaks on the roof basket, and loaded with camping gear for 6, there was some rubbage on the top of the wheelwell and plenty of nose-diving. Had some of the same 'tire cutting' you've posted about but since I trimmed the arches it no longer happens.
Since the 5662's, the front end is definitely stiffer and last trip had no rubbing or bottoming out issues. I still seem to get the same amount of front wheel travel when out on the backroads.

Works for me and what I use the van for. Very Happy
cheers!
tim
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j_dirge
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

timbo wrote:
Rancho shocks (longer than stock travel) Works for me and what I use the van for. Very Happy
cheers!
tim

The key here is the upward travel limit. Since the shock acts as the bumpstop it would be great to know those specs for the Rancho shock.

Konis and Bilstein HDs will be different...

Having these numbers will get us closer to a solution for oversize tires..
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-89 GL Westy, still humming along under the power of a used "WBXer of mystery"
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"

"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5

danfromsyr wrote:
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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boof1306
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dude buy a syncro. You know you want one. Laughing
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levi
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My van's conditions probably very closely reflect yours.

I don't have access to a scale that I know of to actually weigh it, but, with the AW top, big tube bumpers, and a crap-load of tools 'n stuff, I'm guessing an easy 1,000 pounds over the standard weight.

And I have 195/75/16 tires, giving the exact diameter as the 225/65/16, (27.51 inches).

I rubbed them pretty harshly.
Had to go real slow into parking lots.

The moog 5660 took care of that.
I've hit dips going into parking lots really fast and haven't made contact.

btw I'm sitting at 16 1/2 inches, center of the cap to the rim.
How tall are you sitting?

Even though you've got GW 1 1/2" lift, that doesn't say anything about how much the spring rate allows your van to dip, and since GWesty doesn't let out their spring rate, we can't compare.
They could have a 4" lift but if the spring rate is plush enough you'd still rub.

those moog 5660 are about $50 for the pair, no bank breakage. Wink

IMO if you're going to run heavy you can't expect springs that are designed for a lightweight to handle things.
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boof1306 wrote:
Dude buy a syncro. You know you want one. Laughing


X2....a Syncro with 16" archs
Works for me.
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timbo
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

j_dirge wrote:
timbo wrote:
Rancho shocks (longer than stock travel) Works for me and what I use the van for. Very Happy
cheers!
tim

The key here is the upward travel limit. Since the shock acts as the bumpstop it would be great to know those specs for the Rancho shock.


Rancho RS 5136 Fronts
RS 5116 Rears

Both #'s are 3" longer travel than a stock dimension shock. Just have to change the lower bushing sleeves for the stock diameter bolts. I don't have the actual dimensions but they'll be on the Rancho site.
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

timbo wrote:
j_dirge wrote:
timbo wrote:
Rancho shocks (longer than stock travel) Works for me and what I use the van for. Very Happy
cheers!
tim

The key here is the upward travel limit. Since the shock acts as the bumpstop it would be great to know those specs for the Rancho shock.


Rancho RS 5136 Fronts
RS 5116 Rears

Both #'s are 3" longer travel than a stock dimension shock. Just have to change the lower bushing sleeves for the stock diameter bolts. I don't have the actual dimensions but they'll be on the Rancho site.


Limiting straps are needed correct?
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timbo
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

insyncro wrote:
Limiting straps are needed correct?


yuppers!! Very Happy
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